To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Yes, I believe they are genetically male.

Do you think that people will deny their genotype when it comes to these discussions?

Because let‘s be very clear here. If a person who is male who does not process testosterone at all, for any reason, is not currently excluded (and may never be) from
competing in female sports.

You are censuring people using clear language for your very own purposes here. If a male person with CAIS or another DSD that does not process testosterone (or produce it) wishes to deny the nature of their medical condition, that has nothing to do with discussing the regulations protecting female sport (where they are included at the moment).

People are calling these athletes male athletes because they are. Clear language is needed to avoid this mass of confusion. You are the one leveraging phenotypes here to censure others. By saying ‘some XY chromosome people are not ‘male’ you are discussing what might be relevant phenotypically at the overall genotype level.

Your personal choice. But people are not inaccurate or incorrect yet you are trying to tell us we are.

It is a fact or are you one of those crazy people who think you can just decide to identify as whatever you want and everyone else has to accept it?

It's pretty irrelevant to this discussion though as neither of these individuals fit the profile of an XY female

That was a pseudo scientific word salad, but what I’m trying to do is refute the very reductive and over-simplistic view that XY is the be all and end all. It’s not. It’s complicated.

I remember back when Obama was in power there were people on the Internet who were obsessed with posting pics of Michelle's crotch that they thought showed that she was a man.

Same energy. Just as creepy.

Michelle wasn’t punching women in the head, with testosterone boosted strength.

This person certainly knew from May 2023.

It is actually, to be blunt, irrelevant when this male athlete knew they were male. They knew from last year.

They have made this choice to compete with full knowledge. This male athlete bears the ultimate responsibility here.

Have you any thought to the Algerian female boxers that this male boxer has caused harm to? Maybe physical but certainly through loss of opportunity.

And why are you only focusing on the Algerian boxer? Is it because it is a more emotional discussion for you ? What about the Taiwanese boxer?

What a bizarre comparison.

It is totally not comparable and irrelevant.

Indeed, @HowardTJMoon , Michelle bad every right to be where she was. These two boxers do not.

They are not allowed to box women- punch women- anywhere except at the Olympics.

Fascinating.

And they wouldn’t be allowed in other Olympic categories. Equally interesting.

Have you seen the pictures of her as a girl growing up? And you do realise most of the photos showing a huge bulge are fake? If you watch the matches, you never actually see a bulge even if you look really closely!
I honestly think if people watched boxing regularly they would realise how many of the female competitors look quite a bit like men!

It is actually not complicated at all. You want it to be.

Which part of my post did you not understand? I am happy to got through it.

So it's ok to post crotch pics if the person who's crotch you're posting is doing something you think is underhand?

What are you on about? Read about then 37 or more conditions under the “intersex” umbrella. And about the history and current paradigm of so called treatment for people (children, babies) diagnosed as intersex at birth.

the assignment and identity forming is done by the doctors, not the individuals.

Children before puberty all look very similar, a boy with long hair wearing a dress or a girl with short hair in shorts and t shirt, you obviously don't question it. The facts, regardless of appearance, is he has xy chromosomes. He wasn't allowed to compete before due to his gender but is allowed to compete in the olympics despite being biologically a man.

I don’t want it to be. Nature just is. It’s amazing and curious and complex. Can’t be reduced to such inanities on a Mumsnet chatboard. 🤷‍♀️

What Imane wore as a child is irrelevant.

I agree the photos aren’t reliable. I have no way of knowing what’s real in a photo. The classic boy adjustment move can’t be faked though.

Are you genuinely unable to tell the difference between a gender non conforming woman and a man? Clue- it’s not about short hair and clothes. Look up q angles. Look up pictures of runners. Look- with your eyes. Strip away your innate desire to be kind- better yet, focus it on the opponents being punched- and check whether you really can’t tell the difference between these boxers and gender nonconforming women.

It's easy to see a baby has a vulva and says congratulations it's a girl. However when tested and it shows xy chromosomes that means the baby is biologically male. Maybe intersex people and trans people should just no compete unless they're willing to compete against those of the same biological sex.

@GargoylesofBeelzebub Personally I'd be embarrassed to act like a r/thedonald shitposter but there you go.

It's not about "supressing evidence" or whatever self-serving justification you want to give. It's about realising that repeatedly posting pics of people's groins is fucking creepy whether you think the person in question is a man or a woman. Grow up.

I’d imagine that having a man’s life open up in place of marriage and babies at that point was more likely a relief. I can’t imagine most preteens would be thinking seriously about their adult life and what lies ahead. Given that trans people say they’ve always known that they were in the wrong body, these athletes may also have had a feeling that they weren’t actually girls all along?

I dislike this type of one sided emotive response. What about the fairness of the women he is hitting. The biological women. Of the Olympic athlete who took 45 seconds in the ring and had to forfeit, shattering her Olympic dream, and who forefeited for her own safety as she said she’d never been hit like that before.

notone person is taking issue with them identifying as a woman. Not one person doesn’t have some grasp of the complexity of this. The discussion is on the fact irrelevant if any gender disorder, of any identification, these are biological men, in the ring , hitting women.

and more than that. Before they entered that ring they knew they were biologically male. They knew the advantage that gave them and they know full well why men and women box their own gender only.

yes of course emotionally this is difficult for them. Yes of course they can identify as women. But they are biological men and as such, they cannot get into the ring with women.

because those women count too.

It really is amazing.
That doesn’t mean that two labs, two tests several doctors and the IBA, WBA and EUBA are all unable to work out the status of these boxers.

Intersex conditions aren’t really relevant, though they could explain how these particular people have female passports.
Many countries allow you to change sex on your passport with minimal effort.

So what’s most likely- two people with fast and massive success in boxing who look very much like men are considered men by all boxing authorities and the labs that tested, the opponents and coaches that asked for the tests, and almost everyone that looks at them- are actually female, or that they happen to have female passports but are actually male?