Dressage WTF

[OrkneyGirl]

I have just been watching Olympic dressage...a poor horse moving its hooves in time to 'Another one bites the dust'...surely this is done for human entertainment only. The horse wouldn't do this naturally. Commentator saying the horse 'clearly loves moving to the beat'. What a load of crap. Years of making the horse move unnaturally. Probably with a stick or whip. AIBU that this sport is about privileged humans dominating a beautiful animal. Makes me so sad...and angry!

Never heard such utter rubbish- and Im saying that as a horse owner who has a horse kept out 24/7 on a natural horsemanship yard!!

Surely you can see that a horse taking a few steps in nature is very different to the tense, overbent, frothing, tail swishing, tense eyed dressage horses we see on tv?
people really need to start educating themselves to the non verbal communication and body language of equines, the equine pain scale is a good place to start.

Think you’re hallucinating. If they prance it’s because they’re genuinely happy about something, and it’s only briefly - like a dog might spin in a circle. Doesn’t mean they want someone with a whip to insist the do it endlessly. Not really the same experience is it? Be honest.

No, there are various liberty displays where horses do these moves without a rider

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder. Why not switch over and watch the table tennis with Matthew Syed if it triggers you so much?

They don't do anything like the tight, extreme dressage movements they're forced to do under saddle

And there’s the crux of the issue…….your perception of “rich and privileged human” honestly, armchair expert, how much do you know about this really?

Agree, find it ridiculous and don’t agree with it.

If you think Dressage is WTF, look up BIG LICK !!!! now that's horrendous abuse of beautiful Tennessee Walking horse !! , I am and have been a horse / Pony owner for most of my life and like it has been mentioned before yes abuse does happen in the equestrian sport which is absolutely disgusting.( The video of Charlotte Dujardin made me sick) But most equestrians I know and some of them are top level treat their horses / Ponies like kings and queens. If I ever saw anyone abuse any animal equine or not I would have to challenge their behavior.

Those are some very blanket statements you've given re: the whole of equestrianism. There are many of us who don't compete (I don't) my horse is an unofficial rescue and her training and management is 100% focussed on her health and fitness needs. I'd be quite happy to give up riding if she didn't need the exercise or enjoy it, I do a lot of groundwork as it is. I'm privileged just to have her to look after! Due to her health needs she will be unlikely to ever be able to retire in a field.

Clicker training is good when it works (I've no direct experience, but have seen others with some success). But my understanding is it depends on hand feeding treats, which isn't really any good for some horses, especially those who are alpha/dominant in temperament and protective over resources, so i avoid it for that reason. I reward with my voice and a stroke.

I sort of tried to answer about bits by showing the clip of Ben Atkinson. He does a lot of liberty, bitless and bareback, but also uses bits/tack at other times. I don't know his reasoning but it does make me think there may be good reasons.

I love the idea of bitless and bareback, but think 100% can be quite risky if it goes wrong, especially if out on the roads/public bridleways etc. It may be the ideal but I'm not sure we'll ever see it as the norm. I'd like to see more people doing liberty work, but I think bits/bridles can be used kindly to no detriment when ridden and it's there as a back up for a bit more control in potentially dangerous situations. That's how I see it in anycase.

I did it at a lowish level many years ago, you're being ridiculous and showing your complete ignorance of horses.

I also like the sound of bitless and liberty work, and I have no issue with the type of equestrian you practice*. Like I said, everyone has a line and I'm not going to claim mine necessarily has more validity than anyone else's - I just like to see happy, relaxed domestic animals that aren't being exploited or abused. No-one has presented any evidence whatsoever in this thread that horses love dressage and jumping, it's just been a load of irrelevant anecdotes and claims to read their minds. All the actual evidence points to coercion.

Problem is, elite equestrian sport is absolutely dripping in money (some of it dirty), and no-one's making those kind of bucks letting horses do liberty work, or frolic in pastures.

*Edited to add though, my blanket statement about equestrianism is still accurate - as an activity, it only exists to extract utility from horses for the benefit of humans. But as I said, that is true of all domestic animals, and I am no PETA extremist, I don't have any issues with domestication per se.

You could condition the horse to have praise from you rather than treats - it wouldn’t be as effective but it would be possible if the horse will work for your approval, or a scratch. It’s called charging the clicker. The point of using a clicker instead of saying “good” is that you can be faster with it, and the noise is the same every time.

clicker training is derided a lot in horsey circles, but I see a lot of the horse trainers who use pressure and release who could probably benefit from clicker training. You’d click in that exact moment that you release the pressure because the horse has done what you ask. The horse then learns to associate the click with the release and it will learn faster so you don’t have to use the somewhat dubious methods. Most people just see it as click and treat but with a bit of thought and imagination it doesn’t have to be

To get it to learn to stand at the mounting block instead of wiggling a rope at your horses head, making it back up until it you decide it can stop, and badgering it until it realised the only way it gets any peace is to stand there, you could click and scratch him for deciding to stand there until you ask him to move. Two different approaches I know which one I’d prefer!

No-one gives a shit how rich the people are, this class thing is just a sideshow.

We're not disputing that it takes a huge amount of time, effort, talent and skill to produce and control a horse to the extent that it will take its natural movements to bonkers extremes and perform them on demand (although that does rather undermine the claim that the horses do it unbidden and love it, but we all know that's bollocks).

The question is, what kind of maniacs think this is a good idea?

I guess the problem with clicker training is that, horses being prey animals, they will respond far more strongly to fear, coercion and stress-based training (even if that's just a whip being waved), than they will to rewards. That's inevitably going to lead to abuse if people are chasing prizes.

Clicker is extremely effective with highly intelligent predators like dogs and dolphins.

That’s unfair in the extreme! Ok the reference muddies the waters a bit but she clearly has a genuine point to make regarding potential cruelty issues. It’s a cop out just to dismiss this because Op maybe didn’t state it as efficiently as she could have. Leave the class element to one side and you’ll see she has what appear to be very genuine concerns., Plus I must add- it’s pure cowardice to look away when you see something you morally disagree with. We should never suggest anyone does that in life. Where the hell would we be then? We’d still be cock fighting and bear baiting for goodness sake! It’s always the right thing to speak out if you suspect something is wrong. That’s how things improve in every walk of life.

I have similar experiences and I dabble a bit with clicker training.
I do think some comments in the thread about riding not being safe without showing the horse who's in charge, begs the question - should we be riding them at all?

In the arena 'relaxation and softness' are marked up. But, if you watch them training or in the warm up arena, you'll see a lot of the horses being over ridden, head in chest, or the poor things having their heads and neck 'flexed' from side to side. Same for show jumpers. It's sickening.
By the time they enter the arena, they are so relieved that the rider has let loose a bit, they do look relaxed.
We alsi need to remember that horses doing elite dressage are bred for trainability, which basically means they will put up with the training methods. The ones that don't put up with it will not make the grade. And there are a lot that don't. They either repeatedly tip their riders off and get branded as difficult, or they develop painful arthritic conditions ( notably in the spine) or throat problems due to the excessive flexion. It is utterly abhorrent.

Unfortunately young and inexperienced riders see the 'outline' of these horses in the ring and see that as the holy grail, and resort to fair means or foul to emulate it, so it trickles down.

They are also bred for the flashy and unnatural movement. Rather like dogs being interbred to develop 'desirable' show characteristics. But they are still horses, and that kind of movement catches up with them in the end. It's quite unusual to see an old sports horse as they are very often euthanised due to painful conditions. Originally dressage was about training a horse to be strong, fit and well trained for battle, but the sport itself really takes it's toll on them.

@Conkered a couple of other thoughts I had watching those Ben Atkinson clips:

I could be persuaded that those horses truly are enjoying themselves in some of the footage.

As a spectator, it's far more entertaining than the painfully cheesy and undignified dressage.

It's probably a man,.

Why mention rich and privileged at all then? Or 'jolly good time' ? It suggests a large element of the OP's distaste for the sport is rooted in a class bias. Great offence seemed to be taken at having Spice Girls music as well!

I agree that there welfare issues to discuss particularly in light of CD and other recent abuses.

Agreed. It's disgusting and just shows what utter garbage humanity is. Poor horses.

It's quite unusual to see an old sports horse as they are very often euthanised due to painful conditions.

I beg to differ on that. A decent life for a large sized horse tends to be around 18-20 years max, there are of course outliers and the breed can affect this too (same as in dogs ages) like thoroughbreds for who 18 is a very good age indeed. There is a minimum age for horses to compete in any equestrian sport, usually 4 years old; racing is an exception, but thoroughbreds do tend to reach maturity a bit earlier than other breeds (though not IMO as early as they are raced on the flat).

Any horse under about 8 (minimum age for grand prix dressage) or 9 that's reached the highest levels is an exception, then they have maybe 6-8 years at the top typically. This also depends on the type of competition of course, with of the 3 Olympian equestrian sports eventing being the hardest to maintain long term and dressage the easiest.

6-8 years at the top out of a 20 year lifespan is pretty good - you don't have that many human sports where you can stay at the top for a good third of your lifespan! As I said above, dressage horses tend to stay competitive a lot longer than the more aerobic disciplines and I remember one of Chris Bartle's horses competing internationally when the horse was about 18, and 16-17 year olds competing is common.

how do you know when a dog wants to go for a walk?
Because when you spend day in-day out with an animal you get to know it, you get to know their signals and so on.
I had a little cob who would reach out and pick up her head collar off the hook and shake it me when she wanted to go and ride.