Dressage WTF

[OrkneyGirl]

I have just been watching Olympic dressage...a poor horse moving its hooves in time to 'Another one bites the dust'...surely this is done for human entertainment only. The horse wouldn't do this naturally. Commentator saying the horse 'clearly loves moving to the beat'. What a load of crap. Years of making the horse move unnaturally. Probably with a stick or whip. AIBU that this sport is about privileged humans dominating a beautiful animal. Makes me so sad...and angry!

I’m neither jealous (because I have zero interest in horses other than to admire how gorgeous and graceful they are). Nor poor (far from it).

Not everyone who’s against a certain lifestyle wishes they had it.

The class war and undignified naff music stuff is really a sideshow in the cruelty debate.

The anecdotes of happy horses dancing naturally in fields is also irrelevant.

At the top, elite, Olympic level of horse sport, cruelty is part and parcel of it. These horses are not flown out once every four years to compete, they are on planes week in week out, forced to perform at the extremes of their ability (things they absolutely do not do on their own), even in searing hot temperatures like they currently are in Paris.

I’ve seen sports horses foaming with sweat in the warm up arena immediately before going out to jump a 5* course.

Nobody at this level really gives two shits what the horses want or enjoy - welfare in these competitions is secondary to prizes and trading.

That’s without even considering the training practices - and it is absolutely not just one bad apple.

You do realize that a lot of horses actually love jumping and some will be foaming with excitement?

JFC. People in this bubble will convince themselves of anything. The horses were not sweating with excitement, it was 35 sodding degrees.

It’s completely irrelevant whether a horse in some circumstances enjoys doing any specific element of these activities, or whether they do them spontaneously at home in a field (though jump 1.65m? Yeah right).

The point is do they want to compete? Do they want to be in these stressful environments forced to put immense strain on their bodies day in day out? Nothing about competing with animals is concerned with animal welfare, except insofar as they need to be kept in good condition to perform.

Yes you did get confused and the timing and tempo are predictable. No horse trots in 3 time or canters in 2 time.

My point isn't lost, you just don't want to hear it. For years, people have said that in all the instances of animal abuse I've mentioned that the animals enjoy it, that they are happy, that it wouldn't be possible to force the animal to do it if they didn't want to. Horses in poor countries with their bones sticking out pulling carts with loads that are far beyond their capability to pull - do you think they want to do it?

You said you can't force a horse to do something it doesn't want to do, i say that humans routinely force horses (and other animals) to do things they don't want to do, and people swallow the lies they tell themselves to justify it and ignore the fact that there's an animal that's suffering at the heart of it. They just want to get on and enjoy watching the dressage and tell themselves that anyone who thinks there's a problem with horse welfare in equestrian sports just "doesn't understand" or is jealous. That's a lazy argument.

Also just because you personally don't abuse your horses, that doesn't mean there's no abuse in the horse world. Not just at the high levels. It starts at the grass roots. If you've ever been to a riding school, competition, livery yard, show, you will have seen a horse be forced to do something at some point. But i do get it, it's much easier to ignore it than to stand up and say "that's wrong."

Have you never seen a top level dressage horse with such a severe bit that it cannot escape rollkur, so it gets to choose between agonizing pain in it's neck or in its mouth? How is that not abuse? That has happened in the olympics this year, multiple times. Noticed how many of the photos shared on official social media accounts for the team GB equestrians dressage is from front on, or 3/4 view so you can't see them riding behind the vertical?

Do you think there's any possibility that any horse could reach the upper echelons of any horse sport without any element of force being applied at any point? I don't. I don't think I'm the one who is ill informed here.

I rode all kinds of horses and ponies for over 30yrs and it was my job for over 20 of them.

I have honestly no idea how the top equestrians train their horses to do those moves on demand, but I can definitely say that all those moves are definitely natural and horses will do them when being ridden or in the field especially when they are excited or fresh.

Posters trying to make out like ordinary, working class people could do this sport at top levels like the Olympics are probably the same same people who say that anyone can send their kid to a private school if they didn't go on holidays or drink Starbucks 😂

I used to ride a mare that hated dressage - seriously, she would do the moves (only to novice level I should point out!) but be sluggish and jaded about it.

however, point that horse at a jump, any jump, and hang on to your hat!!! She loves jumping and you could feel her perk up the moment we came into an arena and she saw jumps.

she was once being used to give my little niece a ground lesson, but someone had left a jump up in the arena. My mare took one look at it and legged it over the jump - think it was about 1.20m or so - with my 8 year old niece clinging on to her back for dear life!!

honestly, you couldn’t get my mare to do something she really didn’t want to, and if she chose to do something, she was doing it whether you wanted it or not! I never raised my hand to her in anger or otherwise and only once saw someone else hit a horse in anger on the yard and they were thrown off the yard sharpish.

i’ve seen a friends young horse doing flying changes in the field just for the fun of it. It’s now getting quite good at dressage from what I hear. I stopped riding after my mate had to be PTS so I don’t love in riding circles much anymore, but honestly I never saw brutal training methods or anything I wouldn’t have been happy to be shared with anyone. Obviously I can’t speak for every yard and every competitor, but it’s by no means universal.

@Alfarrobeira
“At the top, elite, Olympic level of horse sport, cruelty is part and parcel of it. These horses are not flown out once every four years to compete, they are on planes week in week out, forced to perform at the extremes of their ability (things they absolutely do not do on their own), even in searing hot temperatures like they currently are in Paris.”

Where are you reading this nonsense? They are not “on planes week in week out”. It would be insanely expensive, apart from welfare issues.

They might compete locally every month, at regional or national competitions a couple of times a year, and a major international event every other year or so (if they’re good enough to be selected).

Yanbu

Plus one to this comment! 😂

I'm not reading anything. As I said upthread, I've worked in top-level show jumping. I've met half the riders competing in Paris this month. These horses travel all over the world regularly and yes, it is insanely expensive, which is why the monetary incentives for the riders, owners and breeders are huge, and ultimately override animal welfare.

There are two separate questions here:

1. whether or not the actions the horses are made to perform are natural. They are, though not to the extremes they are pushed to in these competitions.
2. whether it's ethical to put horses into competitions at all, which they cannot consent to, and where they are put under huge stresses, physical and mental. Considering the financial incentives for the humans involved, which in my experience completely outweigh any real concerns for the horses' welfare (beyond what's required to keep them fit), I would say it's not ethical.

I'm still traumatised from watching International Velvet as a kid! 😪😪

they will also admit that no horse jumps a 1.65m vertical for its own pleasure, and will not do so spontaneously.

Haha ha! we had a yearling part-Connemara colt who jumped a 5-bar fence to get to a mare - he was only about 13 hh at the time. (he was gelded the next week ...)

The horses you see at Olympic level are bred for the job, the same as top level racehorses, showjumpers and event horses. By virtue of thoughtful breeding what they're being asked to do comes easier to them than your average riding horse.
Every horse sport is partly for human pleasure, these horses also for the most part enjoy their job and live happy healthy lives. They wouldn't do well just turned out in a field, their brains are too active for that. I say this as someone who knows nothing but horses all of my adult life and also as someone who was disgusted by the Charlotte video. There's bad eggs and poor behaviour in every walk of life and unfortunately she proved to be a bad egg.
As for being wealthy, your average horse owner is anything but wealthy (mainly due to said horse) It's also worth noting that the majority of top level horses are not owned by their riders, they are paid to produce /ride them.

This thread has made me remember that you mustn't have an opinion about horsey matters. How dare we bring up the subject of horses being made to do unnatural things. Of course you are going to protect your engrained opinions to justify the 'sport's' existence. Hopefully dressage will go the same way as croquet and polo. Let's swap it for netball, perhaps? We can even play some cheesy music in the background...

@Standupcitizen I'm not saying there isn't abuse, just like every aspect of the world, there will always be people who think they can abuse other animals or people. I'm just saying you seem to think that anyone that rides a horse is a monster which I disagree with!

Out of interest, have you even ridden a horse?

I'm just saying you seem to think that anyone that rides a horse is a monster

Really? Please read thread.

This is such a circular argument though - it's not a job they're being bred for, it's a competition that doesn't need to happen, only exists for the humans involved to make money and be entertained, and puts the horses under immense strain for no good reason.

I understand that these sports go back centuries and there are generations of people involved in horse culture, which is why it's so hard for them to see the wood for the trees, but really there are plenty of options for sports involving just people and equipment or machines.

The longevity of a human endeavour doesn't automatically grant it value or justify its continuation.

I have read the whole thread, rambling posts and all, and I still stand by my statement.

Croquet and polo? Still full on with the goady class warfare angle then 🙄

By saying it doesn't need to happen you're implying that these sports are to the detriment of the horse, that simply isn't true. They really do have every need catered for and there's plenty of horses living far worse lives in fields.
If you're in the ban all horse sports camp that's your opinion and I respect it. You're right in that the argument is circular and we'd be here all night 😂 I just feel that sometimes, especially with the recent events in the news, that riders are seen as wealthy toffs with no respect for their horses. For the vast majority that's really not the case and we appreciate the partnership with our horse every day (often more than human ones)!

Yes, i do ride and have done for 30 years. That's how i know that horses are forced to do things at every level. I saw it at every riding school, yard and competition i ever went to.

You're quite simply making stuff up when you say that i think everyone who rides is a monster. I haven't said anything even approaching that. Another lazy argument, i suspect because you actually have no counter in support of your point of view that no horse can be forced to do something it doesn't want to do. You know that's just not true. That's ok, you're not ready to confront the fact that not everyone is as kind to horses as you or i might be. But that doesn't mean it's not true.

I'm saying that it's perfectly possible to force a horse to do something it doesn't want to do - people frequently do exactly that, and that it's simply not possible to have a horse compete at the olympics and that horse not have been forced at some point to do something it did not wish to do.

Force doesn't always look like someone lashing a horse with a lunge whip.

@ElleneAsanto

I agree that the OP is being very goady, but that aside I don't think this is about class warfare. If anything, the involvement of royals and other extremely wealthy people in elite horse sport gives it an undeserved air of respectability which obscures the seedy truth. That and the fancy jackets.