Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

You're a feminist in the same transwomen are women.

What does feminism mean to you?

Certainly in motor racing men have an advantage. In something like F1 the strength of men's neck muscles makes it easier to withstand G forces at very high speed. There will also be other physiological advantages due to the high speed and pressure on the body.

In Snooker men generally have height advantage - can lean further over the table. They have longer wing spans which is also an advantage. Male strength is an advantage when breaking.

Synchronised is swimming is similar to dance/gymnastics so I imagine that yes men do have a strength and stamina advantage in many respects. At the moment women and men still have separate events probably for the same reasons as gymnastics. From this year team events at the Olympics can be mixed.

That’s fine my dear , you may believe what you like about me.

For your info, while they are very diff things, trans people and people living with DSDs have a lot in common. For a start there is a huge empirical overlap in the two. Secondly they undergo many of the same medical treatments. Thirdly they often have common experiences in relation to gender dysphoria , discrimination and exclusion from society. As per the issue that started these threads, where this poor boxer has been mistaken for a trans woman, when in fact she (most likely) has a dsd (although nothing confirmed).

Given the absolute absurdities and cognitive dissonance you have been posting so intensely for days on end, I'd frankly be worried if you didn't think I was nuts.

in what circumstances it should happen, and if we should start using more nuanced/ diff criteria

What kind of nuanced criteria?

I compete in a sport in which men are generally inherently stronger than women, I accept this biological difference without finding it anything to get upset about, just marginally annoying when you can imagine the satisfaction you’d get from beating a lot of the men in the same club.

I don’t know any women in my sport who are personally offended by biological facts and of course there are always women who can and do have a competitive edge over men, both by luck of their own biology and because of the huge amount of work they put into training, but overall statistics show that biological sex difference in sports is very real and caused by the factors that make men ‘men’ and woman ‘woman’ no matter how they choose to identify- hormones, bone and muscle structure, body composition, aerobic capacity capacity, and metabolism to name a few!

Wasn't going to post again as this thread is pointless but this one should not go unnoticed.

Arse on plate time for the OP, it would seem!

Even sports where men and women do compete on equal terms the differences are recognised it is just that it can be swings and roundabouts. Sometimes being small and light is an advantage another day being taller and stronger is an advantage.

There was lots of moaning on social media that Ros Canter had an unfair advantage when she won a very wet 5* last year because her low weight was considered an advantage. There was even a call for a return of lead weights.

However on another day Ros would be at a disadvantage to a stronger taller man.

*I am a feminist and I know a lot about feminism.

No you are not and no you do not.*

I mean this is very childish

Are you going to answer my questions OP? For reference:

OP if we didn't sex segregate sports, how many women do you think we would be seeing at the Olympics this fortnight?

If we didn't have separate women's football teams, how many actual women footballers do you think we would see?

Thank you

Toxic in what way? In the way that your misogynistic views are not applauded?

Anyone who thinks a man can be a woman just on his say so is no feminist - but nice try.

Oh you are funny.

Go on, tell us another.

It's an exact précis of everything you believe in documented across numerous threads. If it looks barmy when presented back to you that's because it is.

When you can define a man as a woman, you can define feminism as male supremacism. War is peace, freedom is slavery.

Anyone else getting Trump vibes from OP?

"I'm a feminist, I'm the best at feminism"
"I know more about trans issues than anyone else"

I'm starting to wonder if they're actually undercover on a mission to peak as many people as possible and make them GC. I'm deadly serious. It would truly be the most sensible explanation.

i Can’t find the original post, but I’m certainly not going to allow myself to be schooled on feminism.

I am a feminist. Transphobia is not feminism, transphobia is rooted in misogyny

If you are a so-called “gender critical” feminist, you are part of a movement of people who are destroying feminism because you fail to have a sufficiently sophisticated grasp on definitions of sex and gender and the dynamics of gender based oppression. you do not define feminism, and luckily there are huge numbers of feminists who don’t subscribe to your particular brand of feminism. Thank god

But this is not what this thread is about and I am allowing myself to get derailed.

This thread is about dofferent perspectives on sex segregation I. Sport.

Was something added to drinking water over the last few decades? How, how, HOW, has this happened???

“How about car racing? Snooker? Synchronised swimming?”

Car racing ? Car racing is incredibly physical. It requires arm strength, particularly cornering I am told by a race driver, but also neck strength. To maintain the driving position under that amount of force for hours, it needs neck strength. We already know that female bodies have weaker necks than male bodies. The Swansea Uni study on women’s concussion documented this disparity in neck strength. Even in very strong and fit female rugby players.

Snooker? That is all about height, reach and hand span. And grip strength will certainly help. And being able to take longer between breaths to get the minute movements needed to adjust aim. Will a female player beat some male players, sure? But how many will? And those male players have physical advantages. Those physical advantages mean it is less likely for female players to win.

Synchronised swimming? Lung capacity here would be a great advantage. Also larger hands to enable greater water displacement when needed for moves.

I guess it's kept us off the streets for another hour or so.

This is for @IncyWincyEyeroll , @TheKeatingFive and others.

But I’m not going to keep posting “your’re not a feminist” because that has about as much point as sticking your tongue out at someone in the playground.

Do you even understand what the term "gender critical" means?

I recall very few people in the first threads thinking the boxer was trans. It was well understood that this was an issue of DSDs. It was you and some fellow activists that came along and muddied that up. Deliberately so in my opinion.