Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

I can see the argument there, when women claim more space and power, they get pushback. When gay people wanted rights and respect the same thing happened.

Transwomen want untrammeled access to women's spaces, they even want to erase the word woman and use dehumanising language to reduce them to bodily functions and parts.

Feminists don't want to strip Trans people of rights, they just want to maintain their own hard won ones. Women are the most vulnerable people in society, suffering from unknown levels of sexual assault, abuse, harassment and at least two women a week die at the hands of someone they know.

Trans Rights Activists want to access all women's spaces creating an unsafe environment for women. Many of these Trans women are men who are calling themselves women. There have been rapes and assaults on hospital wards, in prisons, in mixed sex toilets etc Boys calling themselves girls are winning sports prizes and scholarships.

Cmon hellabore it’s the women’s 200 we have a great chance in this

just heats this morning

Unfortunately as soon as you walk into the examination room you are easily identifiable as transgender. In 40 yrs as an HCP I have never seen a trans patient who can absolutely pass as their identifying gender.
It’s not a physical thing but our underused olfactory sense that identifies male and female without using visual cues. It is very much an evolutionary survival instinct that all biological women have. We know immediately but we also know not to point out the bleeding obvious because when dealing with males ( however they present) we know not to trigger anger in men. It really is basic instinct.
Regardless of how advanced our society is we still revert to instinct.

I have always considered myself a tough resilient woman capable of looking after myself, but there have been a few occasions when I have found myself submitting to inappropriate behaviour from men who I thought I was safe with purely through instinctive fear. Becoming passive in certain situations is an instinctive default, it’s why women submit to rape. Fear triggers the deeply embedded response to aggressive male behaviour. Male response is totally different, fear heightens aggression.

The only time you see aggression in biological women is when they are advocating for a family member. The tigress within is a force to reckon with when someone threatens your DC .
Removing anatomical identifiers of sex and taking hormones does not change a biological women’s response to a biological male.

i find accusations of the transphobic nature of MN hilarious given that most posts that even touch on TRA behaviour and trans issues compared to womens issues get shunted to the naughty step and are hugely unseen.

there is plenty of evidence that the development of sex produces differences in bodies that mean that , for some individuals, there is ambiguity as to where they rightfully belong in binary sex categories- male / female. This isn’t just a “knowledge” problem- ie the sex of people is hard to “identify”, it’s a problem with how we define “sex” itself. Which factors do we prioritise when we make a determination about whether a person is properly described as male or female? For example,
some people say chromosomes, others say going through male puberty, etc.

Despite these realities/ ambiguities , people want to reassert the sanctity of binary ,
biological sex as an unambiguous fact. Two (related) arguments people like to emphasize- sex is defined by reproduction - there is no role for sex variations in reproduction- reproduction involves two and only two sexes;, sex variations are rare and prove the rule (binary sex) because people were meant to be one sex or the other but they have a medical disorder which made them different.

Hence my analogy with sexuality. Sexuality is also part of reproduction, - sex and sexuality are two parts of the same biological/ evolutionary function. Yet we also have diverse sexualities. We don’t start quibbling about how these sexualities don’t have a reproductive purpose , and therefore they are actually not real differences, or how diverse sexualties are just straight people who developed wrong/disordered , which in turn proves how human sexuality is binary/ straight (the exception that proves the rule). All of this would be a scientific nonsense and recognised as being offensive/ discriminatory

Have ciswomen been marginalized and murdered throughout history?

yes. It’s the same hatred that makes people want to murder trans women - hatred of femininity.

Unfortunately as soon as you walk into the examination room you are easily identifiable as transgender. In 40 yrs as an HCP I have never seen a trans patient who can absolutely pass as their identifying gender.

There have been some cases where transgender people haven't been identified as such, with bad consequences. A combination of obfuscation by the patient and negligence on the part of the medics I suppose. However, the cases I can think of were females not males (in one case a baby was lost).

I was flummoxed by this last night.

But it seems to be the not unusual tactic of criticism being amplied to ‘personal attack’. It is a claim for victimhood.

Like posting outside the guidelines, abusing people, then declaring it is because people with an alternative opinion cannot express them. It is like a form of self-sabotage to then claim victimhood. We have seen it time and time again used on FWR, haven’t we?

What is consistent though, is the complete lack of symmetry and the rather large rock of hypocrisy.

Tbis is an excellent post👏🏻.

I'd love to stay for the entrrtainment, but I have to go to work. Have a great day everyone.

It’s the same hatred that makes people want to murder trans women - hatred of femininity.

It's not a hatred of 'femininity', men will murder gender nonconforming women too.

You can't begin to compare violence against Trans women with the violence meted out against women since time immemorial. There are few Trans homicides in the UK against two or more women a week. Transwomen obviously are far stronger and bigger than women and less likely to suffer like women. They are at considerably less risk.

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I'm going to repeat something I wrote - and you ignored - on a similar thread yesterday.

John McEnroe said a few years ago that, if placed alongside men, Serena William would probably rank about 700 in the world. He caused some minor outrage, but he was not wrong. I believe Williams herself said as much.

A Swedish schoolboy's football team beat their country's national women's team.

Anyone who has been through male puberty has massive advantages over a female. To the point that a good male amateur could beat a world class female athlete. There is no point pretending otherwise. To do away with sex segregation means the end of female sport.

Former Olympic swimmer Sharron Davies is very good on this. Her Twitter account is worth following if you're interested.

Yes. I remember that one.

But also the female patient who decided not to tell the specialists treating them their sex, and registered as a male and nearly died. Because the specialists were using the male charts to assist diagnosis. It went on for weeks, and the patient was in hospital the whole time and nearly died.

Because they genuinely believed they had changed sex. That is where ideological thinking has caused so much harm. The mantras and the attitude that information can be ‘unsafe’.

Yes - this is how the misogynistic logic works:
GNC women are not behaving like “real women”. Women are inferior because of femininity and should know their place. Hence gender non conforming women must be punished. Hence rape of lesbians to “turn them straight”.

What planet do you live on where Serena wasn't/isn't celebrated? At the height of her career she was celebrated everywhere, with good reason.

Sure random men on the internet have said nasty things about her but that's the same for most people in the public eye and doesn't equate to them not being celebrated in their career.

Playing in the women's tennis category has not stopped Serena Williams being known for and celebrated as the best of the best in female tennis. What would have stopped that celebration is having no female tennis category because nobody would have heard of the Williams sisters.

Arguments about prize money and resources not being as good as men tennis are all valid arguments but suggesting there's no celebration of her achievements is not a valid argument, in my opinion.

Side note - You can't have got much more than 3hrs sleep last night looking at the time stamps on your posts Tandora. So unless you're working shifts with your twin, Pandora, this can't be good for you!

Side note - You can't have got much more than 3hrs sleep last night looking at the time stamps on your posts Tandora. So unless you're working shifts with your twin, Pandora, this can't be good for you!

you are right 😭.

Bollocks.

🤷🏼‍♀️

Mmmm…. Who is this ‘we’? It is the Olympics and you know that we might not be all on the same side? 😁

Of course, not only do I barrack for two countries, I jump up and down for great wins from wherever. I am really getting my exercise while couch Olympicing!!!

You're making that argument re 'femininity' far too complicated. Misogynistic men think women are inferior because of our sex.

Some people will attack all manner of perceived 'otherness'. I'm going to bet the rioters have a large intersection of racism, religious intolerance, misogyny, homophobia and transphobia.

Misogyny doesn't like 'pretty feminine' looking women either.

It just shits on women. Whatever women do, it's not good enough.

Well your arguments are at that level of lack of understanding the issues.

agree

Good run Dina 🙌🏽🙌🏽

Who is this ‘we’?

Well... women! The race will give a chance for world class women athletes to shine. As should all the women's events - most sports have progressed to making this the norm again thank goodness, boxing being the shamefully egregious exception this year.