Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

I can quite easily say as a feminist I support trans rights

I support for them - the right to dress how they like, to call themselves what they like, to be treated with respect and not discriminated against, to create events for other people like themselves

This Isn't quite the same as I support then to be given rights to other peoples rights. So I would not support their right to a spot in a sports event for disabled people and I would not support a man in women's sports events

And I don't support the right to harmful medication and treatment

I would support the right for much better physiological treatment to help them understand themselves better and cope with distress

I would support further research to see if there was any biological markers for transgender

They don't get to reignite any dysmoprphia I used to feel by making out that any disconnect between gender and sex is a result of flaw in me not a flaw in society

I am not flawed

Why was women's sport invented? And why do elite women have much different performance results then men?

Are you saying they aren't training hard enough?

Why does safety in sport not matter to you?

You are either ignorant or disengenous.

I disagree that there didn’t used to be a problem with trans women- trans women have been marginalised, murdered etc throughout history.

But I agree it’s also about homophobia. And homophobia is itself rooted in misogyny.

What has being gay - an easily observed sexuality that emerges in equal rates across all societies and cultures and eras fit to do with transgenderism which meets none of the previous criteria ?

I cannot be arsed with this absolute piffle. Everyone knows men's bodies are different from women's and we segregate in sports on the basis of sex because - as astonishing amounts of data prove - men will beat women (in the case of sports like boxing, quite dangerously).

Go away with your claptrap.

Perhaps this is the difference.

Many of the posters you disparage do read the analysis from people they don’t agree with. And they resd the links.

Because even someone you don’t align with politically may offer something to consider.

like the rest of the bollocks that spews forth from you!

Transowmen have been murdered at the expected rate throughout history

They are murdered At the same rate as other men - gee who would have thought - except when they participate in the sex trade , when they are murdered at the same rate as other sex workers which is higher rate than men

They also commit murder at the same rate as men ( a higher rate than women committing murder )

Re medical records, it seems blindingly obvious to me that sex should be accurately recorded because it's unsafe for transgender people to not do this but there can also be space for information on 'gender' to aid the medical professionals to give correct and compassionate treatment.

Preferred name and mode of address should apply to everyone - MiL always went by her middle name, really disliked her first name. But when she was old and confused, every time she was admitted to hospital we had to intervene to get the staff to use the appropriate one. The hospitals my DM went to seemed to be able to manage to adhere to her preference of not being called by her first name, so it's doable.

Go away with your claptrap

Yes. Posted several times on the threads you were active on.

Struggling to see your logic here. You appear to be saying because homosexuality exists and has no role in reproduction, I am using this as evidence that there are others forms of sex outside male and female because this also has no role in sexual reproduction. Which clearly makes no sense at all, not least that there is very indisputable evidence that homosexuality exists, yet no evidence that humans are anything other than binary in terms of sexual reproduction.

And your argument makes even less sense given you have already appeared to clarify that you meant the sex of some people is hard to identify, rather than humans sexual reproduction is not binary.

Sorry, but I’m quite confused by what your line of thinking is here.

Yes Transwomen have been marginalised but people largely left them to get on with things. It was when the Trans Rights Movement started pushing their agenda down people's throats that they got pushback. Trans people don't have more of a right than everyone else and don't have a right to infringe on the rights of others.

Have ciswomen been marginalized and murdered throughout history?

Anyway, just taking one event, what criteria would you use to define the different categories. I think it will be possible to see how badly women (cunty type) will be thrown under the bus by you.

Yes usually when marginalised groups start to claim a place in society they face backlash.

Ciswomen is offensive and inaccurate description of me and many other women

All of whom have been marginalised throughout history

Where is herstory?

Yes women are facing a huge backlash as we try to take our place in society as this thread demonstrates

Great to see you acknowledge that biological sex matters.

If you can understand that it matters in medical contexts, then you are also capable of understanding that it matters in sport. You have said yourself that you don’t know anything about sport and plenty of posters have educated you on it. So now your question has been answered.

I am so enthralled in catching up I haven’t even had a stickybeak at the Olympics this morning.

Not half as much as women – you know, adult human females – have been marginalised and nowhere near as frequently as they are murdered: at the rate of over two a week by partners or ex partners.

What's so fascinating about transwomen that you'll kick women in the proverbial for your cause?

I disagree that there didn’t used to be a problem with trans women- trans women have been marginalised, murdered etc throughout history.

But I agree it’s also about homophobia. And homophobia is itself rooted in misogyny.

Gay men have also been marginalised and murdered throughout history.

A vile subset of men do unspeakable things to anyone they don't see as 'proper men'. It's related to misogyny but not exactly the same thing.

Struggling to see your logic here.

OP is completely devoid of logic. He's a wind up merchant. I'm playing for the time being as it's more appealing than doing the VAT return 😳

Wanders off to find the sketch where Bernard Black invited in the Jehovah's Witnesses to avoid the VAT return

Same here. This is such a beautiful, lyrical, almost poetical, example of cognitive dissonance.

Can we put it in Classics, please Mumsnet? Please?

Nobody is saying that. Why are you creating arguments that no-one is making? Why don’t you respond to the arguments I have made instead?

on the contrary. OP has explained that they c/p and highlight those sentences as examples of the awful insults they are getting and to highlight how unfair MNHQ is by censoring their speech but not those posters highlighted.

It offers brilliant insight into OP and those of their ilk's thinking: because none of those are egregious insults or personal attacks. Not in any way shape or form. At all.

But we see what OP and those of their ilk's understanding of "attacks" is and so it is easier to understand why when a woman states a clear biological fact "only men have a Y chromosome" or "women don't have penisis" or "woman: adult human female" are mortally wounding insults of the very worst type. Operation Let Them Speak is fantastic for that.