Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

So the female bodies are different from the male bodies, thereby affecting their athletic ability.

Society therefore separates athletic competitions by sex.

You've just solved the problem you've been having!

Excellent.

Absolutely.

Look at the non-binary category. The non-binary category (which offered equal prize money) ended up just rewarding male people who were well down the results table. Every time. And that just gave male people another way to win prize money. Ie. indirect sex discrimination under the guise of inclusivity.

An open category would create a second category that only men would win. And society may decide it’s ok with that. But let’s not pretend it would be anything other than a second chance for men to get medals.

No, you'd have an open category (which only the men would win except very very exceptionally) and a women's category.

They don’t have a “role” in reproduction . (. What’s the “role” of homosexuality in “reproduction”?)

I’m not particularly interested in language around a “third sex”. The important point to acknowledge is simply that there are variations in sex development that produce differences that creates ambiguity in how to classify that person’s body into one of two binary sex categories. These variations are rare, but they exist.

Re whether sex differences can affect snooker or synchronised swimming, the answer is 'yes'. Albeit snooker is different from pool, the issue of sex-based differences was discussed at length when a male beat Lynne Pinches. At population level, males are larger than females and their breathing and heart rate is slower, which allows them to be more still when taking a shot. Further, at population level, males being bigger and stronger than females includes hand size and strength, which is important to control of the cue.
Re synchronised swimming, males would be able to take advantage of their greater strength and larger lung capacity.

Actually, the current rules don't allow trans women to compete:

"Athletics becomes the latest sport to ban transgender women from female sport, following World Rugby in 2020 and World Swimming and the Rugby Football League last year.
24 Mar 2023"

What’s the “role” of homosexuality in “reproduction”?

None, that's sexuality not sex.

And the male type folk monopolise the pool table down the pub!

Well yes, in any sport (I’ll use running here so will use ‘faster’ but insert the performance measure for any sport), the top 1 centile men are faster than the top 1 centile women, the 25th centile men are faster than the 25th centile women, the 50 centile Ike men are faster the 50th centile women, the 100th centile men as faster than the 100th centile women.

We know this. We have decades of sporting performance data to tell us this, across many many sports. This fact is not interesting. What is interesting, is the psychological and sociological processes that go on in some people to try deny or obfuscate this well established fact. I find it a really fascinating study of the human motivation and ability to deny manifest reality

Ahh apologies, my information was out of date.

”Im def interested in expert views, just not of those with an anti trans axe to grind as I know that has nothing to do with science and therefore discredits them”

And there is the issue. Right there.

That there is prejudice.

I’m a feminist and support the rights and inclusion of trans people , along with a huge proportion (majority?) of feminists around the world.

As usual with TRAs, you're deliberately conflating transmen (as in, women) with transwomen (as in, men). Feminists don't generally have much problem with transmen, because despite the ravages of exogenous testosterone and the aggression it can cause, they are and remain women, usually recognisably so (don't bother posting photos to "prove" otherwise - still photos and actual physical presence are very different) and are highly unlikely to be attacking other women. That's in complete contrast to transwomen, who are men, mostly heterosexual men, and who are a threat to women because of their sex They retain male patterns of violence and sexual entitlement. Even if any given TW is a NATWALT, we have no way of knowing until it's too late, which is why we want all men out of our spaces, whatever they pretend to be.

Oh and the majority of feminists around the world are not your third-wave sex-pos libfems.

And? The evolutionary basis for sexuality is reproduction, same as sex- they are part of the same process/ function. We don’t say that homosexuality can’t exist because it has no role in reproduction.

Yep.

Feminists don't generally have much problem with transmen

people in general don’t generally have much of a problem with trans men , they just largely ignore them .
People in general save their vitriol for trans women, this is because transphobia is rooted in misogyny.

Name? Yes

Pronouns? A load of attention seeking bollocks. Nobody's pronouns need recording on medical records

Gender marker? Irrelevant. Sex matters.

And? The evolutionary basis for sexuality is reproduction, same as sex- they are part of the same process/ function. We don’t say that homosexuality can’t exist because it has no role in reproduction.

Sexuality is separate from 'reproductive role'. Gay men can father children, lesbians can have babies.
Sexuality isn't just about reproduction, it has other functions too e.g bonding.

And do you still believe that transwomen should compete with women? Do you know better than these sporting bodies?

How can objecting to men have anything to do with misogyny? The only misogyny here is yours, with your insistence that men can be women if they feel like it.

Just what makes these men women? Is it the makeup? The wigs? The hormone treatments? The genital butchery (which only around 5% get - mostly they're more than happy to retain the penis and testicles)?

Only a misogynist or a fool (or a combination of the two) thinks "woman" is something a man can be.

This is entertainingly incoherent, even after everyone has (hopefully) had a kip.

It's like watching the tasmanian devil try to conduct an orchestra.

Homosexuality is not a sex. So that is not relevant. ( And of course gay men and lesbian women have produced children throughout human history).

As for your second point, you cannot say sex is not binary yet claim a lack of interest in identifying a third sex. That position is not coherent. A claim that sex is non-binary, by definition, requires a third sex.

Arguing that there are difficulties in how to classify some human’s sex is not an argument for sex not being binary. You can surely see that? Perhaps you misspoke when you referred to sex not being binary as a way to talk about some people’s male or female sex being more difficult to identify?

And with advances in understanding and testing, it is not that difficult to identify the sex of someone with DSD in societies with ready access to that testing. DSDs are disorders of the male or female sex.

Actually it's partly to do with homophobia, rather than misogyny. There didn't use to be a problem with Transwomen until the floodgates opened a few years ago and any male could announce he was a woman and gain access to women's spaces and sports.

Did you actually read my post?

Or did you see a word and respond?

We also don’t say “ok gay people are here, but they are just straight people who developed wrong - the exception proves the rule that humans ARE straight”. What would be the purpose of that when it’s clearly a) a scientific nonsense, b) offensive/ discriminatory.

Yep, like the rest of the bollocks that spews forth from you!