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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Feminists against sex segregation in sports

1000 replies

Tandora · 03/08/2024 21:22

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:02

Shaketherombooga · 04/08/2024 09:00

I look at female athletes and see powerful, strong, fit women. The biological reality is that men have a size, physique advantage.
Thats why we separate them.

👍🏻

OP posts:
FOJN · 04/08/2024 09:04

Tandora · 04/08/2024 08:39

No the information peddled by transgender trend is anti scientific because they are an anti trans/
lobby hate group.

just do some searching of academic journals if you are interested in learning more about this area of medicine. Theres plenty out there. Dont pull your facts from the website of an anti trans lobby group.

The evidence Transgender Trend link to is gathered from clinicians at paediatric gender clinics. Transgender Trend are offering their analysis of the data, you could read the data and offer your own analysis, why won't you do that?

Or

Are you claiming that paediatric gender clinics are staffed by transphobes. That would seem unlikely.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:04

Igneococcus · 04/08/2024 09:00

The issue isn’t with the evidence, it’s with the futility of trying to argue with someone who has already made up their mind.

That is probably how most people on this thread feel about you, tbf.
Right, i'm off.

I’m sure they do. But I’m not the one asking people to send me resources about how trans children don’t exist and don’t need healthcare to prove me wrong. I wouldn’t do that because it would be disingenuous and a waste of their time.

OP posts:
4timesthefun · 04/08/2024 09:05

I’m pretty sure Tandora has said what he thinks - that there are biological differences between XY and XX people, and although XX people would not be remotely competitive in the professional tier of most sports in an open category, we should celebrate that they would still beat lots of XY people…. But it’s infantalising to celebrate their relative mediocrity with silly little things like sex segregation for Olympic medals.

Now Tandora has admitted that differences in shot put are due to differences in biology, we need to find a unique way to celebrate the fact the XX competitors can throw further than lots of dudes. Just letting them compete for Olympic medals isn’t cutting it. We need to think big to really make sure we don’t celebrate them like we do the strong men. Perhaps they could run bake sales in conjunction with going to athletics clubs and beating the teenage boys? Perhaps they could fundraise for charity by beating corporate males in topless Tuesday throwing competitions?

Realistically, if female shotput athletes were made to throw the same weight as men, I don’t think they would be in the top 100,000 men, let alone the top 100. I’m pretty sure in junior athletics, boys of 13-14 are already throwing the Olympic women’s shot put weight AND the state records in that age group would be within the Olympic qualifying standard.

If Topless Tuesday Throws doesn’t take off, we might just need to accept that the only way to ever celebrate a female throw athlete is by sex segregation. Horrific, I know.

missmousemouth · 04/08/2024 09:06

@Tandora

No! And i wouldn’t be happy to get in the boxing ring with that Italian female boxer either!

But if Tyson Fury said he was a woman you'd be happy for that Italian female boxer to get in the ring with him?

Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:07

FOJN · 04/08/2024 09:04

The evidence Transgender Trend link to is gathered from clinicians at paediatric gender clinics. Transgender Trend are offering their analysis of the data, you could read the data and offer your own analysis, why won't you do that?

Or

Are you claiming that paediatric gender clinics are staffed by transphobes. That would seem unlikely.

No im claiming that the information peddled by transgender trend is cherry picked and manipulated, to present a very misleading version of the “facts”. Trumpian style “alternative facts” we might say. They do this because they are an anti trans lobby group. Their motivations are to disappear trans children (and by extension trans people) because of their ideological conviction in the sanctity of binary biological sex as an unambiguous fact, and their desperate desire to cling on to this belief.

OP posts:
Pluvia · 04/08/2024 09:08

Here's a (massive) post from Carole Hooven, an international expert on hormones, sex differences and evolutionary biology on TwiX. Posted here in full for all those who can't access Twix.

"Seems like a good time to re-post my older (now edited) post about athletes with XY DSDs (Disorder, or Difference of Sex Development). Lots of graphs and detail about the relevant biology at the end. * * First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits. Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male. These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone. DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance. The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty. Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed. I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence. Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.) For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes. For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2). The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups. The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)." "Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)." Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men*: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development. We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al. Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

The OP is just one of dozens of trans activists all over social media at the moment, trying to spread lies and disinformation. Carole Hooven provides the information that we all need to correct people who've been fooled into thinking that men in women's support can ever be a good idea.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:08

4timesthefun · 04/08/2024 09:05

I’m pretty sure Tandora has said what he thinks - that there are biological differences between XY and XX people, and although XX people would not be remotely competitive in the professional tier of most sports in an open category, we should celebrate that they would still beat lots of XY people…. But it’s infantalising to celebrate their relative mediocrity with silly little things like sex segregation for Olympic medals.

Now Tandora has admitted that differences in shot put are due to differences in biology, we need to find a unique way to celebrate the fact the XX competitors can throw further than lots of dudes. Just letting them compete for Olympic medals isn’t cutting it. We need to think big to really make sure we don’t celebrate them like we do the strong men. Perhaps they could run bake sales in conjunction with going to athletics clubs and beating the teenage boys? Perhaps they could fundraise for charity by beating corporate males in topless Tuesday throwing competitions?

Realistically, if female shotput athletes were made to throw the same weight as men, I don’t think they would be in the top 100,000 men, let alone the top 100. I’m pretty sure in junior athletics, boys of 13-14 are already throwing the Olympic women’s shot put weight AND the state records in that age group would be within the Olympic qualifying standard.

If Topless Tuesday Throws doesn’t take off, we might just need to accept that the only way to ever celebrate a female throw athlete is by sex segregation. Horrific, I know.

I’m pretty sure Tandora has said what he thinks

OP posts:
AngelinaFibres · 04/08/2024 09:09

This seems a sensible explanation .

Feminists against sex segregation in sports
KTheGrey · 04/08/2024 09:10

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Previously banned poster.

I agree with you about the inherent grimness of boxing. It's fighting and people hurting each other is not a source of viewing pleasure to me.

However, lots of people enjoy participating and watching it, and I don't know if we should stop sports that provide an outlet for energy and competition in a safe environment just because I don't fancy it much. My dad did it at school because he was bullied and being a) able to hit people and b) on a school team stopped that. It has utility.

However, men, including those with DSDs, are even more unsafe for women to compete with, and boxing is already dangerous. The benefits of testosterone are widely documented. Not to protect women here is simply misogynistic.

Yes, men have an advantage in some car racing (F1?); the pressure of high speed turns is very high. Stronger bones and musculature would logically give an advantage. Possibly less so in the offroad stuff.

As for synchronised swimming, and floor gymnastics, you will notice that the effects of testosterone here are not advantageous; you don't see many men competing out of sex class (and these are non contact and would be safe.) These are dominated by women. These (unlike boxing and F1) I happily watch.

However, I also watch athletics. Specifically running very fast. I think it's just awesome to watch. And here, again, sex makes a difference.

I shouldn't have to choose to watch a sport according to my sex, in order not to watch women being humiliated by men.

BurrosTail · 04/08/2024 09:10

Tandora · 04/08/2024 07:15

but don’t you know that a male who is exactly the same age, height and weight as a female is stronger and faster than the female?

No. Some males (the same height/ weight) are faster than some females. This is exactly the stuff that bothers me and why I find sex segregation in sports troubling in terms of the (binary) assumptions about gender that it reinforces.
This is what causes people to denigrate female athletes and suggest that their abilities are equivalent to a “shit” , “mediocre” man.

Edited

So obviously there should have been “an average female” and “an average male” inserted there, my bad. Of course there are some females who are faster etc than some men. However generally a lot of males score higher than a lot of females, even in park run (top 100 all male as another poster said).

Your point about “some” women beating men is more valid at school level competitions but much less correct with prestigious competitions.

I myself had better running time than most men in my sports club (which wasn’t a running club but I did a lot of running at the time), and I had greater lung capacity (measured in science class) than any girls and some boys, but that was because I did a lot of exercise and they didn’t.

The number of females who can beat men reduces the higher we go in sport competitions, I.e. this is mostly to do with how much practice has been done. Olympics obviously require excruciating hours and extreme practice, which leaves women behind, because males respond to practice better (physiologically).

You are aware that teenage college boys beat professional women athletes in most cases, yes?

Sex must be the tarting point of segregation in sports, followed by weight for contact sports. That is the only way to ensure women end up on the podium and it’s not filled by males who either identify as women or are males w DSD.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:12

Pluvia · 04/08/2024 09:08

Here's a (massive) post from Carole Hooven, an international expert on hormones, sex differences and evolutionary biology on TwiX. Posted here in full for all those who can't access Twix.

"Seems like a good time to re-post my older (now edited) post about athletes with XY DSDs (Disorder, or Difference of Sex Development). Lots of graphs and detail about the relevant biology at the end. * * First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits. Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male. These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone. DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance. The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty. Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed. I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence. Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.) For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes. For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2). The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups. The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)." "Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)." Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men*: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development. We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al. Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

The OP is just one of dozens of trans activists all over social media at the moment, trying to spread lies and disinformation. Carole Hooven provides the information that we all need to correct people who've been fooled into thinking that men in women's support can ever be a good idea.

I don’t disagree with the science she has shared here

OP posts:
Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:12

BurrosTail · 04/08/2024 09:10

So obviously there should have been “an average female” and “an average male” inserted there, my bad. Of course there are some females who are faster etc than some men. However generally a lot of males score higher than a lot of females, even in park run (top 100 all male as another poster said).

Your point about “some” women beating men is more valid at school level competitions but much less correct with prestigious competitions.

I myself had better running time than most men in my sports club (which wasn’t a running club but I did a lot of running at the time), and I had greater lung capacity (measured in science class) than any girls and some boys, but that was because I did a lot of exercise and they didn’t.

The number of females who can beat men reduces the higher we go in sport competitions, I.e. this is mostly to do with how much practice has been done. Olympics obviously require excruciating hours and extreme practice, which leaves women behind, because males respond to practice better (physiologically).

You are aware that teenage college boys beat professional women athletes in most cases, yes?

Sex must be the tarting point of segregation in sports, followed by weight for contact sports. That is the only way to ensure women end up on the podium and it’s not filled by males who either identify as women or are males w DSD.

Fair enough , these are all valid points

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 09:19

Tandora · 04/08/2024 07:39

I’m not open to being “schooled” about feminism by (so-called) “gender critical” feminists no (aka told I’m not a feminist but a misogynistic male abuser), feminism is a subject I know vast amounts about.

I was interested in learning more about, and discussing people’s knowledge and opinions on, sex segregation in sports

Edited

Most people understand why we have sex segregation in sports.

Although sometimes I think it would be worth saying fine, no more sex segregation in sports, just one open category, and then in a few years' time when men have won everything and women haven't got a look in, we'll go back to segregating sporting categories by sex and the subject will be permanently closed.

Barbie222 · 04/08/2024 09:26

sometimes I think it would be worth saying fine, no more sex segregation in sports, just one open category, and then in a few years' time when men have won everything and women haven't got a look in, we'll go back to segregating sporting categories by sex and the subject will be permanently closed.

Except by then, we'd have a set of records no natal woman could ever beat!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 09:27

Barbie222 · 04/08/2024 09:26

sometimes I think it would be worth saying fine, no more sex segregation in sports, just one open category, and then in a few years' time when men have won everything and women haven't got a look in, we'll go back to segregating sporting categories by sex and the subject will be permanently closed.

Except by then, we'd have a set of records no natal woman could ever beat!

They'd be open category records, not women's records.

FOJN · 04/08/2024 09:30

Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:07

No im claiming that the information peddled by transgender trend is cherry picked and manipulated, to present a very misleading version of the “facts”. Trumpian style “alternative facts” we might say. They do this because they are an anti trans lobby group. Their motivations are to disappear trans children (and by extension trans people) because of their ideological conviction in the sanctity of binary biological sex as an unambiguous fact, and their desperate desire to cling on to this belief.

Here's a list of the studies into whether children grow out of gender dysphoria. Feel free to examine the information or supply your own.

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html

Your response is very revealing about your commitment to an unscientific ideology. I wonder about the echo chamber you must inhabit to write that on a public forum in the belief that most people will think it's reasonable, its not.

Adults seeking to safeguard children are not looking to "disappear" them, your use of such emotive language is shameful but fooling no one.

<i>Do trans- kids stay trans- when they grow up?</i>

Following the closure of the CAMH Gender Identity Clinic for children, I have been receiving requests for what the science says.  Do kids g...

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html

Brefugee · 04/08/2024 09:31

Tandora · 03/08/2024 22:56

I know exactly what it is and the content/
structure of “gender critical” beliefs/
logics.
It’s not “critical of gender” because it’s based on an entirely erroneous understanding/ theorisation of gender. It reinforces, not challenges gender based oppression.

Edited

gender is a social construct that reinforces how (some) societies/people think either sex should behave. It is the VERY essence of gender stereotypes.

Gender based oppression is therefore oppression of people reinforcing gender stereotypes. What i see of transactivists and transpeople is that they identify into the gender stereotype (good eg: Dylan "oh I'm so ditzy and girly" Mulvaney)

Feminism is against oppression and discrimination based on sex. SEX based oppression (and gender stereotyping) harms men too, btw.

Bloodyredface · 04/08/2024 09:32

because of their ideological conviction in the sanctity of binary biological sex as an unambiguous fact, and their desperate desire to cling on to this belief

Sex class ( male and female) relates to one’s role (or potential role) in sexual reproduction. If you think there are more than two sexes, what is the role of this third ( or more) sex in sexual reproduction? That role cannot be one filled by the male or female sex, for it to be evidence of a third sex.

DSDs are not a third sex as they do not have a role in sexual reproduction which is outside the male/ female role.

You cannot legitimately say sex is not binary if you cannot identify this new third role in sexual reproduction.

Bloodyredface · 04/08/2024 09:36

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 09:27

They'd be open category records, not women's records.

An open category would create a second category that only men would win. And society may decide it’s ok with that. But let’s not pretend it would be anything other than a second chance for men to get medals.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 09:36

Bloodyredface · 04/08/2024 08:56

This is why we need systematic reviews, such as the Cass Review.

You can tell who the ideologues are by who rejects and who accepts things like the Cass Review.

The Cass review recognises that trans children exist and that for some trans children access to puberty blockers at tanner stage 2 may indeed he an appropriate medical pathway.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 04/08/2024 09:37

Tandora · 04/08/2024 07:59

Yes, I agree with the current rules around letting trans people compete.

I meant I don’t have a strong opinion about sex segregation in sports more generally. I suppose I think it’s probably necessary to ensure women can fully compete, but I worry about the impact that it has on gender stereotypes, reinforcing simplistic binary ideas about gender, perceptions of female inferiority, and the denigration of female sports in general. I was reflecting on whether there was a better way of doing things, and came across that article. I was interested in the views/ knowledge of others .

Edited

but I worry about the impact that it has on gender stereotypes, reinforcing simplistic binary ideas about gender, perceptions of female inferiority, and the denigration of female sports in general.

This may be where material reality will always win out and that rather than trying to pretzel female sports into including the very people who remove fairness and safety from
female sport, the change needs to continue to change society’s perception of female sports, not male sport participation harder for those the category seeks to elevate - female people.

You keep talking about ‘gender stereotypes’ and posters keep trying to point out the facts that female people cannot fairly compete with male people. That is factual.

When it comes to the difference between the sexes, ‘binary’ is as unavoidable in sport as it is in reproduction. Because the differences are based on bodies and the reproductive role they are formed around.

There already are mixed sex sports. There already are sports where male and female people make the same exceptional contributions in the same event.

As an aside, it is in some of those events that the stark differences in power between the sexes can be seen.

The people who think ‘female people’ are inferior at sports are never going to change. Why should female athletes be harmed, to have their right to single sex sport diminished to convince others that female people are not inferior? That is counterproductive and it is misogynistic.

The way to eliminate those sex based stereotypes is to celebrate female sports, to ensure that it gets equal coverage, equitable investment etc. It is not to reduce the fairness and safety to include male people in the name of eliminating stereotypes. That is reductive.

There is an interesting bit of information that the two most watched TV sporting events were female athletes. One was decades ago when the hugely talented Cathy Freeman won her race. The other was more recent and was the Matildas competing (world cup I think). How remarkable is that?

I am not sure it is that ‘remarkable’ though. Because I know from personal experience from watching children play sport, that as many people turn up and cheer on the girls as they do cheer on the boys. I also have seen the difference between the crowds pulled to watch metro league adult games, and there is not that much difference either.

Another thing that happens to keep eyes on quick events, run them when possible so that a female heat or game is alternated with the male game.

These are examples of things that can be done without removing the fairness and safety of female sports.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/08/2024 09:37

The usual misunderstanding of 'gender critical'...it's precisely being critical of and rejecting gender stereotypes. We were using the term on this board before issues around trans identification started being discussed much at all. It's what gave rise to campaigns such as Let Toys be Toys. It's about supporting people who are gender nonconforming - whether that be mere 'presentation' or choice of career. It's rejecting the 'girls can't....' mentality

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/08/2024 09:38

Bloodyredface · 04/08/2024 09:36

An open category would create a second category that only men would win. And society may decide it’s ok with that. But let’s not pretend it would be anything other than a second chance for men to get medals.

I think from my point of view it would be an opportunity to prove the point about why we need female only categories.

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 04/08/2024 09:38

Ah, OP. I don't understand why you're getting such a hard time. 95% of voters think you're unreasonable. It's them, right? Not you, surely.

Your 'Feminists against Sex Segregation in Sport Society' sounds grand. I suspect that you'll have to take on multiple roles: Chair, Treasurer, Secretary, Membership Administrator and so on. But, if it brings about its aim and I can compete against men in my next competition, then it'll all have been worth it, eh? I won't have any chance of winning that competition of course but I know we're doing the right thing. We absolutely must centre the men, their feelings and their entitlement.

My empathy with you comes from previous experience. I previously set up a society called 'Christians against Jesus'. It's still in existence but I can't drum up the membership. The pesky Christians just won't give me air time 😬

You and I need to get together over a coffee and devise a plan to bring light and realisation to all these pseudo feminists.

Keep the faith 😍

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