Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

No feminist wants women subjected to beatings by men, or any of the other things TRAs and MRAs salivate over.

OP still here? Thought he was going to take a break.

Yes, I agree with the current rules around letting trans people compete.

I meant I don’t have a strong opinion about sex segregation in sports more generally. I suppose I think it’s probably necessary to ensure women can fully compete, but I worry about the impact that it has on gender stereotypes, reinforcing simplistic binary ideas about gender, perceptions of female inferiority, and the denigration of female sports in general. I was reflecting on whether there was a better way of doing things, and came across that article. I was interested in the views/ knowledge of others .

OP still here? Thought he was going to take a break

I just can’t understand this thinking. It’s not doing down women or acting like we’re inferior to acknowledge that on the whole men are stronger & faster than women. If we can’t start there then you’re saying all sports should be desegregated and then we’d see…. What? Men winning absolutely everything at an elite level.

Take any event and even when you consider an aptitude for the sport, access to higher level coaching, a life dedicated to the sport - men will always be dominant which is why we sex segregate!

Men 100m breaststroke world record is 56:88
Womens 100m breaststroke world record is 1:04:21

The man is taller (6ft 3in to 5ft 8.5in), heavier (90kg to 70kg) and looking at photos has a bigger wingspan and has more muscle mass.

Lets find a woman of a comparable height, because maybe it’s about height, the 5th fastest woman is 6ft. No man in the top 25 of all time even comes close to that time. No man in the top 25 swims the 100m slower than 59 seconds. If we removed sex as the separating factor no woman would even come close to winning a medal.

Sex matters.

yes I’m a feminist

You clearly identify as a feminist, OP.

Like men identifying as women, or me identifying as a cat: you can ‘identify’ as anything you like.

But like men menstruating or me being able to leap three times my height, it’s still just fantasy.

I’m a feminist and support the rights and inclusion of trans people , along with a huge proportion (majority?) of feminists around the world.

The subject of this thread is sex segregation in sports.

But does being inferior at shotput and discus make you an inferior person? Is it really such a negative thing to acknowledge that men are typically better at athletics and swimming, not withstanding Jenny from accounting who beat bob once. I’m pretty sure it was Serena Williams herself that acknowledged that at her peak, she wouldn’t beat a single male player in the top 100, or even come close. I don’t think it makes her inferior to acknowledge she wouldn’t be remotely competitive against elite male players. Sure, she would beat most club level men, but no one is stupid enough to believe you would see any women at Wimbledon if it wasn’t sex segregated.

I worry about the impact that it has on gender stereotypes, reinforcing simplistic binary ideas about gender, perceptions of female inferiority, and the denigration of female sports in general.

No, you just don't like inconvenient biological facts, they threaten the way you wish to play with reality and the rights of biological females. Don't try to make out that you're concerned about females when your whole agenda implicitly prioritises menz feelz.

not withstanding Jenny from accounting who beat bob once
Its much much more than this though.

Serena was brought up in the previous thread. If 100 men in the world can beat her in tennis, then that makes her able to beat 9.99999% of men out there (assuming a global pop of 1 bil + male adults).

I appreciate that this would still prevent her winning or even competing with men in Wimbledon, but I think it’s really important to understand that (the previous paragraph).

Hence my reflections on how sports might be rearranged to enable the celebration of women like Serena while highlighting this, rather than reinforcing basic binary generalisations about gender and a perception that she’s only as good as a “shit man”.

Don't try to make out that you're concerned about females when your whole agenda implicitly prioritises menz feelz

but I worry about the impact that it has on gender stereotypes, reinforcing simplistic binary ideas about gender, perceptions of female inferiority

Do you really worry about that though?

I think what we see at elite level sport is biological reality. And given that a lot of female athletes have spoken out and said they don't want to compete with biological men (for many reasons) we should listen to them.

There's no such thing as 'trans children'.

How do you suggest we support women in sport then?

Yes it’s ideas like this that support my claim about GC ideology being about trying to disappear trans people. There absolutely are trans children .

Quite. It bears repeating, doesn't it?

No, you just don't like inconvenient biological facts

im very comfortable with biological facts .

I don’t know. I’ve already said that I was curious whether there were diff / more nuanced stratification criteria that could be used - also to allow more people with disabilities to participate. I was also interested in the recommendations in the article.

Well this is all very entertaining but the article posted by the OP is a law review. Here's a link to a lecture by three academics who are experts on the science of fairness in sport.

im very comfortable with biological facts .

... unless they mean women get to compete on their own terms, rather than those of menz. (Just finishing that thought for you, to reflect the whole position of your thread.)

I heard Serena Williams talking about Andy Murray ( with whom she’s friends), and how he’s said they should play tennis sometime. Her reply was ‘ you’d win 6-0, 6-0, 6-0’. She said that she thinks of men’s tennis and women’s tennis as completely different sports. And they are. She’s a really strong, bulked up woman, and Andy is not at all billed up for a man, and he’ll still win and he plays with more power.

Its not feminist to ignore obvious differences between men and woman. In fact, it’s literally anti-feminist to do so in contexts where those differences matter.

She’s a “gender critical” and anti trans ideologue .

(Im def interested in expert views, just not of those with an anti trans axe to grind as I know that has nothing to do with science and therefore discredits them).

The fairest way we have is by sex. There is no other means of ensuring fairness, if that means a trans identified individual can’t compete with their gender identity then so be it. What you’re proposing is that if Djokovic identified as a woman tomorrow he should absolutely be allowed to compete in the women’s singles which he would absolutely win and that would be just and fair because of his feelings.

I wasn’t talking about trans issues - the current rules allow trans people to compete.

I was talking about sex segregation more broadly. But yes I take on board you comments that simple sex segregation is the only way

No there are children who have gender dysphoria. There is abundant evidence to prove that, for about 85% of them, puberty is the cure.

No one should advocate for potent pharmaceuticals or radical body modification with irreversible outcomes and lifelong health problems when psychological and emotional support is a better alternative.

What adults do is up to them but we should protect children from decisions which lead to sterility and sexual dysfunction before they are even old enough to consent to sex.