Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

In boxing that could easily result in the woman's death or serious injury. You can't have it both ways

I don’t know anything about boxing, but I wouldn’t support any sporting event that could reasonably result in someone’s death or serious injury.

If I'm understanding this correctly womens fears and anxieties don't matter. Neither does their rights to privacy, safety and dignity it would seem.

What you don’t understand is that for a trans woman, that’s equivalent to asking them to disappear

So self exclude from health care then?

I think that meant refuse a male trans doctor and get a woman doctor instead, not no doctor.

The trans identified males (transwomen) at least.

All the feminists I know include trans identified females (transmen) in their feminism... coz y'know they are female. I know you know Smallsalt, but for the benefit of @Tandora who would probably have jumped on that 🙄

Apart from the dangers of physical harm have you ever considered the other harm that allowing male bodied people who want to win medals into women’s elite sports?

if a man is selected for a team then it means a woman isn’t.

if a man gets sponsorship it means a woman loses out on income

if a man is awarded a sports scholarship then a woman isn’t.

if a man gets chosen for an elite training camp, so getting access to physios, sports psychologists, nutritionists, top level equipment, then a woman stays at home.

if a man wins a medal it means a woman doesn't

if a man sets a new record in a woman’s event it means a woman loses her chance to be part of a sport’s history, to share that with her family, to be an inspiration to future female athletes. And there exists the horrific possibility that unless that such a record is eventually expunged it would stand for all time and no woman would ever be able to beat it.

All these things matter hugely to elite female athletes, just as much as they do to elite male athletes. Why would anyone think it right that the hard work, effort, personal sacrifice, pain and determination that women athletes endure is of such little value that no one will care if a male athlete who is not good enough to win in a male event swoops in to steal their reward?

Yep you understand Tandora's position very clearly!

Females don't really matter and we don't get to do anything other than "reframe our trauma!"

And I see you've done the N+1 argument on how many woman are acceptable collateral damage too!

no idea what this means.

To the men's spaces.

Quite.

Yes exactly

Vulnerable and ill female people are not responsible for making sure a male person with gender dysphoria is not triggered.

This is misogynistic to suggest that their needs are to be dismissed to make male people feel better about themselves. Especially in a hospital setting.

Plus this is absolutely a disproportionate burden to place on female people in hospital.

You don’t understand what it is to be trans .
This is the root of it.

And you had this explained to you very clearly on the thread yesterday/the day before - I can't remember, time has lost all meaning as I should have been asleep ages ago!

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. I think a lot of peoples eyes have been opened wide in the last few days, and they don’t like what they see.

Ok ladies I really do need to sleep. Wishing you all well.

Roughly 34 % of the poster on this site are men.

But I am glad that the pushback that you have experiences on this thread has been an experience for you. In case there is any chance that you are genuine, I hope you come back and read over this thread when you're less tired and have sample time, and think about it.

Feminists by definition put women first, or at the very least regard and treat women as a class as at least equal to, and as human as, men as a class. You don't. There's no shame in that; it's how you feel so far. Misogyny and feminism can never be compatible, because feminism has the meaning of treating women as full human citizens, just as important as men.

No but I know a man who identifies as not a man is still a man.

Very true.

Maybe the transwoman could just reframe their trauma and consider being a better support to women, perhaps?

You don’t understand what it is to be trans .
This is the root of it.

Maybe. And transwomen don't understand what it is to be a woman.

And what dignity are they stripped of?

(Though quite what is dignified about men in womanface and with fake breasts I don't know.)

Dear Helias.
i am not a misogynist, i am a feminist. Supporting trans people is not misogyny. Fear of trans people is rooted in misogyny. I believe women are equal to men. The thinking and reflecting on trans issues was done thoroughly and long ago. The “experience” i referred
to was the level of nonsense and anger directed at my person. I stand by everything I have said on this thread (apart from some of the random stuff about sports 😂) take care. ✌🏻

This exactly. Why can't men who identify as not men but who get triggered when people who really are not men (that would be women) react to them as they are men just re-frame their trauma?

Yes. It has been explained many times on the threads that OP posted on.

Just like much of the information that would be exactly relevant to this thread’s original topic. But I, for one, cannot be arsed to repost it again for someone who obviously ignored it all the first, even second and maybe even third time.