Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

I can imagine a few sports. And some current endurance events could meet this metric. But what this question fails to acknowledge is that what we consider sport has developed based on male norms. Those norms and indeed, masculinity in general, is more prized in our society than female norms.

So sport that does develop in which women have a natural physical advantage (and in which they overcome current sexist societal obstacles to take advantage of that so that they tend to beat men in elite competition) will a) not have many men participating in them or spectating for long and b) not get as much media coverage/sponsorship OR c) be changed in some way as to no longer advantage women.

We aren’t at a point yet where society has moved beyond that. And we won’t get there by letting sport be a free for all - that will just take us back to the days when women didn’t do anything competitive.

OP - you seem smart enough to know that female born athletes will never be able to compete against male born athletes in discus, shot put, and hammer throw, and if we removed sex segregation, there would no longer be any female born athletes in those events.

I’m really happy to hear you don’t want to see the elimination of female born Olympic athletes in those events, as that means you are indeed highly supportive of sex segregation in some sports where there is a physiological advantage.

Turns out that is almost all sports. I’m a feminist too, but let’s be real, at a population level, men outperform women at almost all sports . I’ll agree with you that in some general competitions like chess and poker, there is no physiological advantage, so they should be able to all compete equally at high levels. At lower levels, segregation may still be beneficial to encourage girls to participate. At our local gymnastics centre, they segregate boys into their own classes very early to ensure they continue to feel comfortable attending classes. They found when they didn’t have boys only classes, the boys dropped out by about 8. This has helped with retention of boys, so they can train them for national programs.

I’m so glad we finally established the OP is supportive of sex segregation in sports. While I wouldn’t want to dictate anyone’s internet behaviour, I’m personally going to stop posting. I think the going back and forth just feeds something else for the OP and the best way to manage that is to stop engaging.

And transwomen don't understand what it is to be women. So now we're actually getting somewhere!

Fear of trans people is rooted in misogyny.

Nope. No idea how you could think that.
Most women don't 'fear' trans people. Many do fear males in female space - be that a hospital ward or women's boxing.

(I think some men fear trans people out of homophobia.)

But their rights do not trump biological women's.

Many women are rape and abuse survivors. We do not want to share space with a male regardless of how they see themselves. That is our absolute right.

thank you for this perspective. I think you are very right

Slow head shake from me.

Even the screenshot types would find this one just gets on their tits* surely?

*where available, YMMV.

On the subject of sport: not everyone gets to compete in elite sport. It’s naturally exclusive, not inclusive. Male athletes who are either trans or who have medical disorders can either compete against other males, or accept that they won’t have a career in elite sport.

Lots of people face barriers getting into elite sport without having a disability that qualifies them for the paralympics. I used to be shit-hot at tennis but my asthma meant I couldn’t play for long periods. What are you going to do - shorten the matches to just one set so it’s inclusive for me?

On trans issues: I am aware from the many, many, many comments you have made over multiple threads that you are not interested in women’s safety, or women’s opinions. You champion trans rights which is great - but you do so by trampling on women. That’s why so many people scorn at your claim to be a feminist. You’re not interested in finding solutions that work for all - as long as male bodied persons are ok, you’re happy. I’ve not once seen you standing up for women’s rights - and by that I mean biological women, not the male bodies you claim are women.

If predatory males are a problem for trans women, they need to find a solution that doesn’t involve forcibly inserting themselves into women’s spaces. Women deserve to be safe too. One woman raped is one woman too many - and we know that some trans women sexually assault women. Not all, but some. Women are not a shield and it’s not up to us to always have to shuffle over and yield our hardwon rights.

It’s revealing that you started a thread about sex segregation in sports but later admitted you know nothing about the subject. That just demonstrates you have entrenched views and don’t care about the facts, only that you promote men’s rights.

Women are passionate about this because it’s not some trivial game. These are real women and real lives, and real safety. Women matter.

I think a huge number of women around the world finally started to question what they had been led to believe by activists.

It happened with Hubbard, it happened with Isla Bryson. This awareness event is unfortunate because I do think that the IOC was hugely negligent here.

But it really has made many people think and to be angry for the female boxers.

What you don’t understand is that for a trans woman, that’s equivalent to asking them to disappear

By the way, we know transwomen who respect women and their spaces who don't feel this way.

This whole post is largely a nonsense which I won’t dignify with a response.

Regarding this-

It’s revealing that you started a thread about sex segregation in sports but later admitted you know nothing about the subject
it’s not revealing of anything at all. I literally said in the op that I didn’t really have an opinion but I had just googled something. I was upfront straight away I know very little about sport.i was thinking about it and wanted to garner opinions. Clearly on this subject they are very uniform!!

Anyway why am o still posting 😭😭😭

Netball is a good example.

considered a female sport and played extensively in schools. And yet, over the past year more and more male people are wanting to play. It is growing as a televised sport too.

Funny how "not putting on a dress, calling yourself a woman and intruding in women's spaces" means men disappear. Wonder where all these mid-life TWs - the ones who married and fathered children before deciding they're Real Women™️ - were before they had their epiphanies?

Most Olympic athletes in Western countries will also be born into privileged families, so it’s absolutely not inclusive. One of mine (male, so acceptable in his ambitions) still has aspirations of being an Olympic competitor in a team sport and he is doing reasonably well in national junior competitions. I can assure you that none of his team mates or those I meet in travels are anything less than highly comfortable. The last national competition we needed to fund cost about £4k and required a parent to be present for the entire 10 days.

Truthfully, my son is highly unlikely to make an Olympic team, he is way too injury prone. Some of his teammates may and I would be surprised if any parents would get to the end of that journey having spent less than £100k on their child’s sport. Yes. There may be a very occasional child now who isn’t from privilege but all sports are expensive. Even when my DD was doing high level swim comps, the squad fees, meet fees, and swimwear really added up.

I’m sure the OP is just as concerned about fighting for equal socioeconomic access to elite sport.

I know. I think I asked about that, I don’t believe I got a reply. But to me, this (about male people and respect) speaks volumes.

I have known several Olympians. Few of them were not working class.

You won’t dignify it with a response because you can’t.

It would be very easy for me to find a collection of your past comments to demonstrate my points. Many of the posters on this thread and the one from earlier today immediately recognised you from previous threads.

And you’ve spent a large part of this thread arguing at people that sex shouldn’t be a distinguishing characteristic - suggesting using maybe height or weight instead. You suggested that repeatedly. You suggested that despite men being 20% stronger than a woman who is the same weight and height. You came into this with the same arguments that you always chuck out about men - in whatever shape or form - being in women’s spaces.

Saying you came into this with no opinion is unbelievably disingenuous, especially when you share a nonsense article to back up your “suggestion” of banishing sex segregation.

And let’s not forget the little gem from you earlier where you said there was no point to women’s sports if we couldn’t compete with mediocre men. Because clearly, men’s athleticism is what women should measure themselves against…. 🙄

I sincerely hope that such an overwhelming response on this post might make you reconsider your views - but I doubt it. You’ll just dismiss MN as, what was the phrase you used - “toxic cauldron”?

Again this is all a complete nonsence and manipulative.
grey rock is the way to go with posts and posters like this 🪨

"Toxic cauldron" - interesting choice of words, given the association of cauldrons with witches. What an original term, just like misogynists have used for centuries.

This is so true. I have friends whose daughter is in the top ten for her age in the country for her quite niche sport , but nearly all her expenses have to be met by her parents ( and loving grandparents) they have a younger child too, so that means that if they want to see each other most weekends they have to travel and stay in hotels as a family of four. The sport is international even at this level, and some of the girls from other countries are already getting quite large amounts of sponsorship and free equipment, which is just as well - at one series of matches they went to one of the US girls came with an entourage of coaches , physios and motivators. It is a sport where if you are successful the monetary rewards are very good!

Sorry, meant to make the point that when it comes to financing an elite athletes career it means that it is so important that funding, scholarships, national lottery grants etc which have been earmarked to support aspiring female athletes are not diverted to supporting male athletes. Emily Bridges tried very hard to get accepted onto the female elite cyclists pathway following being dropped from the male elite pathway. Only ten female cyclists are funded, if Emily had been accepted then a young woman who had worked and trained just as hard as Emily would have been dropped.

To be clear I did not say “ toxic cauldron”. Never said that in my life: entirely invented by that pp , similar to the rest of the rambling.

That poster hasn't been rambling at all. Just because you want women exposed to misogynistic men doesn't mean women saying "No" are rambling or speaking nonsense. In fact you accusing others of rambling is verging on DARVO territory.

This has made me smile as it sums up the whole problem! Yes, she does get to define feninsim, there is an accepted definition of it, and your views don’t align with it. In the same way that the word woman has a definition, and someone who was born male doesn’t fit the definition, much as they might like to. There have been numerous posts explaining why the article is flawed, but you aren’t engaging with any of those, you don’t seem like someone who is actually asking for opinions if order to inform your view- your mind is made up.

OP, you're no more a feminist than the bloke who writes A Voice for Men.

Try the real meaning of feminism: "women's liberation". It's patently obvious you don't want us liberated from men in any way. You don't even want the word "woman" to have a meaningful definition. You reduce us to ideas in men's heads when you claim they can be us.

🪨