Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

I don’t see that it’s troll hunting at all. I don’t think people are trolls, and I’m not accusing them of such.
I’m just highlighting the many, many posts that are just gratuitous personal abuse, because I think it’s important.
Theres too many to be bothering mumsnet and what’s the point? If they stay here it will be more educational.

Motor racing and snooker (along with darts) are sports in which a few women have competed with men but the opening of the male category to occasional women hasn't lead to the end of a female category too.

these are decisions for policy makers. Who are ultimately accountable to their constituents.

You can expect this kind of response when you come on here, claiming to be a woman, saying that you see nothing wrong with big strong, elite athletic men at their physical peak competing against women, when there is irrefutable, verifiable, undeniable evidence of the biological differences between male and female.
Strength, power, height, muscle mass, lung capacity, heart size, limb length, bone density, centre of gravity, q angle, pelvic flair, wing span, carrying angle. All important differences when it comes to performance and capability in sport!

accepting sex segregation in sport as the universal default reinforces harmful gender stereotypes, as well as sex segregation in other domains

No, it doesn't.
It's just a recognition of the reality that we're a dimorphic species. Women can compete with each other on equal terms.
In other domains...the only significant other sex segregation I can think of in the U.K. is single sex schools. Far from reinforcing harmful gender stereotypes, girls schools show the opposite - significantly more girls doing subjects such as physics, FM and CS which in mixed schools are still too often seen as 'boys subjects'.

I don’t think it’s proportionate to always put trans women in side rooms, in case they upset someone with their transness . This is the transphobia bit and wanting trans people to disappear from public life. And it would be outing. What if a trans person doesn’t choose to disclose they are trans ?

I don’t think I should expect personal abuse no

They don’t upset people with their trans-ness. They upset people with their male-ness. In a space that is sex-segregated to protect the safety and dignity of its female occupants.

OP - out of curiosity, do you think sports like swimming and athletics should remain sex segregated? If you were going to simply take the top 32 people in the world in each event for an international competition, it would almost always be 32 men. Occasionally it might be 30 or 31 men and an odd female, but that would be reasonably rare.

Funnily enough, transwomen wouldn’t get a look in either. They may dominate female born competitors, but I don’t find it coincidental that it’s not the male Olympic medalists desperate to compete in the women’s category. It always seems to be those who would never stand on the podium in their own sex class.

I guess at least the pesky women would know their place.

You wish to harm female athletes so no sympathy from me.

We have also posted a lot about hormone levels on most of the threads you have been on. About the normal and the healthy ranges for male and female people. And the ranges for male people with virilising puberty DSDs.

I have even posted studies and papers about reducing testosterone and sport.

I asked you what you read from the past few days of posting that you demonized and diminished. You wonder why posters who posted relevant information are frustrated that you don’t seem to have bothered engaging ‘with good intentions” with what was posted already in threads.

Did you read any of it? Or did you dismiss it?

I really don’t believe “mediocre” male athletes regularly become trans to compete in female sports

I would argue then that for the rights, safety, dignity and privacy of women and girls, that the GRA needs to be amended to make sure that no biological man however he presents or identifies, and regardless of what certificate he has should be permitted to enter or be housed in women's single sex spaces.

I’m not asking for your sympathy and of course I don’t wish to harm female athletes . What nonsense

It's not because they are trans that they shouldn't be on a single sex female ward, it's because they are male. It's a nonsense to suggest that it's about "upsetting women with their transness" when you've just been told it's about women being traumatised and distressed, and being put at additional risk. No one would need to "out" the transwoman as other patients aren't told why some patients are in side rooms!

Who said it was regular? When it does happen in sport though, it doesn’t seem to be the male gold medalist though.

So, do you think swimming and athletics should remain sex segregated knowing there would NEVER be a female born olympic discus thrower or 50m freestyle swimmer if you removed those categories.

Was just going to say that but you've said much clearer 😊

clearly mumsnet loves sex segregation in sports

Well obviously - it's a predominantly mums - women and parents. We care about our kids being able to do sports fairly and safely.

Maybe it’s happened 1 time, who knows, never say never : but I don’t believe it’s a thing or a genuine cause for concern.

50% of whom are women.

So if I was a politician, which I am not, I would be a little bit wary of
disaffecting 50% of my electorate to pander to a really teeny tiny proportion of my voters, no matter how loudly they shouted, threatened me with retaliation and rape , disrupted my electoral hustings, abused my staff and stalked my family.

Yes you are, whining on about "personal abuse" and thats why you're hughlighting it, while you sit behind your screen backing female athletes to be physically harmed, many who would be seriously harmed and maimed, even killed. The absolute audacity of it.

Should athletics and swimming remain sex segregated? Or should they be combined and we accept the end of female born participants in the Olympics in many of those events?

I don’t think trans people should always have to be put in side rooms to make women more comfortable. That is part of trying to make trans people disappear from public life and making them feel like stigmatised or second class people. And by outing themselves - I also mean to the medical staff! Plenty of trans girls and women are really private about being trans and the pass as women, it wouldn’t even necessarily be on their medical records.

whining on about "personal abuse" and thats why you're hughlighting it, while you sit behind your screen backing female athletes to be physically harmed, many who would be seriously harmed and maimed, even killed. The absolute audacity of it.

So it's ok for women to feel uncomfortable?