Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Ooh you transphobe you! Careful or you'll have to stand in front of the mirror shouting fascist at yourself! 😂😂😂

Im inclined to think that OP isn't in the sex classification to be able to call themselves a feminist.

I'm struggling with the logic.

No you didn’t.

If you wanted to learn about it you would have persisted in a search on Google Scholar and the like. You’d read recent published texts that you disagree with and delve into the references so that you can critique the facts and research.

You started this thread with the same intention you’ve shown on every other thread you’ve joined this week - to cause division and conflict, to incite arguments, to call people who think differently to you fascists. And definitely not to discuss and learn about alternative perspectives.

Yes but it has to be balanced against competing needs and it has to be proportionate .

requesting a female doctor- no problem- the balance of need is obviously much greater for the woman than any harm caused (negligible if any).
Banning a trans woman from a female health ward - not proportionate. The harm caused to the trans woman of being outed and excluded would be greater than the hard caused to the woman of having a trans woman on the ward (likely she wouldn’t even know the woman was trans etc).

You can’t see it, can you?

You just chalk it up to those ignorant feminists who won’t allow another opinion. But you cannot see your own behaviour. Even on this thread.

Im inclined to think that OP isn't in the sex classification to be able to call themselves a feminist.

😂😂😂

Oh dear.

greater than the hard caused to the woman of having a trans woman on the ward

Talk about a Freudian slip. Ew.

Thanks for that insight, if that ridiculous little gem is a central argument in the article it saves me bothering to read it .

Do you know what gender stereotypes are particularly harmful? The ones which tell little boys that if they play with dolls, like singing and dancing and don’t like football that they are trans, the ones which tell little girls to be kind and not to do handstands unless they are wearing shorts, the ones that tell autistic girls with anxiety and eating disorders who think they might like girls that they will feel better about their bodies if they cut off their breasts and pretend to be a boy, the ones that tell insecure teen boys that being trans is better than being gay.

If you wanted to learn about it you would have persisted in a search on Google Scholar and the like. You’d read recent published texts that you disagree with and delve into the references so that you can critique the facts and research

why? I often go to mumsnet rather than Google, it’s much more efficient! I was also interested in what other women thought.
clearly mumsnet loves sex segregation in sports 😂

I know what I said, I wrote it. You're quoting this back to me why? That's like what that bloke was doing the other day who was a misogynistic prick about his gf. At least he wrote "no response" on the quote.

QED

No I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong on this thread

Ok. If I'm understanding correctly you are saying sometimes biological sex matters and sometimes it doesn't? Who decides when it matters and a trans person should be excluded on the basis of their biological sex? And who decides when biological sex should be ignored regardless of the distress, embarrassment, lack of privacy and dignity it may cause women and girls?

A transwoman who is put into a private room isn't being outed or harmed. And there is a harm to women, you hardly think that all transwomen pass as female? Some or all the women will know, and for some that may be traumatising and distressing. Then, as much as you may not like it, male people represent a risk of harm to women. Regardless of their gender identity.

That's not your fault, it's only because there isn't any.

Tandora is a bit of a known entity here. I do not think they are a good faith poster.

It's Pidgeon chess, we can make all the intelligent "moves", play by the rules etc and the Pidgeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and declare itself winner!

Honestly I'm only posting because I am finding Tandora's non-arguments, lack of knowledge, and sheer misogyny kind of amusing this evening. I think I've just reached full saturation over the last few days and if I didn't laugh, I'd cry or implode.

A couple things.

Firstly, it is false to say ‘they probably won’t realise the male was in the bay with them’.

Secondly, I think the female people
who need a space away from
all male people when they are so vulnerable will argue that you have dismissed the degree of harm having to share a hospital bay or room with a male person will cause.

There is the alternative of finding a side room which means that no one is ‘outed’ and female single sex spaces are maintained for those who need them most.

I have to say that you've engaged with me and I thank you for that.

I’ve already explained why. I want to highlight the volume of personal abuse I have to field when I express a different opinion about trans issues on mumsnet. I think it’s important to highlight the amount of posts that are just gratuitous personal attacks.

Cross posted.

Yes. I can see that you don’t think you have.

at least you didn’t try to deny the behaviour over the past few days.

@Tandora posting like that is not really in the spirit. Posts you think are personal attacks should be reported, not highlighted and commented on as that could be considered troll hunting. Which is against the talk guidelines.

It’s actually mutual this evening. Normally I find you rage-inducing , but I loved the change in username and the comment about me looking myself in the mirror and shouting fascist actually made me laugh out loud- Which was therapeutic. So thank you Mdme SexFascist for that.