Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

No one spends their time thinking about whether there's any situation where the lowest weight category would be "better" than the highest weight category. Because that's not a question that makes sense

agree. That makes sense:
but people do spend time comparing men and women’s physical prowess in sports. That was what provoked me to start this thread. This is part of why I wonder that it might be better to have dofferent categories?

You've got to wonder if some people posses the ability to self reflect... or failing that own a mirror 😂

And yet, despite your intention, calling anyone a fascist or any group a fascist is abusive.

And we have told you this over and over and you ignored it and doubled down.

But hey… we are ‘ignorant’ right? And we obviously deserve being called names and having negative generalisations made about us. Right? Yeah. We know. You have told us.

*Should females be allowed to say no to males at all?

yes, of course.

Should females be allowed sex segregated sports?

Not if that means excluding women with sex variations and trans women.

Should females be allowed sex segregated prisons?

tricky. I think this one depends. I’m not sure.

Should females be allowed sex segregated rape crisis centres?

tricky. I think probably yes.

Should females be allowed sex segregated health care?

not if this means excluding women with sex variations and trans women.

Should females be allowed any kind of single sex anything?

Yes probably.

Should lesbians be forced to have sex with "lady dick"?

NO!!!!!

Go and read and listen to Ross Tucker. He has explained this on Twitter very well as to why your suggestions don’t work.

"but people do spend time comparing men and women’s physical prowess in sports. "

The response to that is not to agree with it, but to demonstrate why that's wrong and then to promote women's sports. The way to do that is to talk about women's achievements in comparison to women, and reject any attempt to bring men into the discussion as not relevant. Being able to explain why helps.

Oh I bet it makes sense to you. What you're whining (and not even roughly translated) means is: women should have to fight (yet again) and keep on fighting for their sex-based rights just so that sportzmenz can feelz better.

Fuck that and fuck you.

Helle, you don’t seem to have any good intentions. The posts were deleted. I didn’t repeat those words. It was done.

It was you who repeatedly referenced it over and over, goaded me with it , and insisted that I provide an explanation. So I did, because you asked.

"Should females be allowed sex segregated sports?

Not if that means excluding women with sex variations and trans women. "

Blimey. After all the explanation do you still not understand the unfairness and inequality of allowing any male person, whether trans, male DSD with male puberty/testosterone or just male, into women's sports categories?

in fact, go and read some of the work done for World Rugby where they considered all these things you suggest before making their policy.

All this work that you wonder about has been done. I suspect many of us have read that work for ourselves.

Well that’s why I started this thread:
to discuss and learn about it

Personally I think what is extreme is the sterilisation and mutilation of otherwise perfectly healthy children.

I think this is a very productive exchange.

And again I literally couldn't care less what words you want to use to describe me or even whether you mean them personally to me. They are just words from someone who's opinion I really don't respect. They just wash over me like white noise, I can assure you that you cannot "hurty words" me.

I am however really, really enjoying having your views set out nice and clearly for all to see. I suspect you are enjoying it far less than I am.

Sorry, not just fairness and equity but also safety!

And you think highlighting sections of people’s posts and pasting them as replies was ‘good intentions’?

Some of us have spent a lot of time answering your posts over the past few days and you still misrepresented what we said and didn’t engage. Please don’t talk to me about ‘good intentions’.

I think some trans activists are desperate to link the protests over men boxing women to transphobia in case people realise that those "nasty terfs" really did just want to keep men out of women's spaces and the trans part was irrelevant

So:

Female only sports & health care are a 'no' to you, & prisons & rape crisis centres are a 'maybe'.

I am going to phrase this more politely than you deserve.

My daughters & I do not need your notion of 'feminism', & you disgust me.

Bold that.

You've showed us all who you really are, over and over again on this thread. I was just checking for the removal of any doubt but, yep, misogyny in all its brazen transparency.

Thought so.

Did you really say we shouldn’t be entitled to sex segregated health care? That I as a survivor of abuse should accept a man wearing a dress to be my doctor and I have no right to insist on a same sex doctor?

all that is fine. I can still hear the anger and vitriol in your posts. Theres none there on my side.

I’m really happy to share my opinions
where I feel able to represent them appropriately. I have nothing to hide .

Probably best just to do away with sex segregated sport and then we can all just stick to watching people with male genitalia or XY chromosomes play sport and the people with female genitalia or XX chromosomes can get back to focusing on the things THEY are good at, like washing clothes, cleaning, and childcare.

I mean, essentially that’s what removing sex segregation would mean for many sports. One of mine used to be a national level swimmer. Post puberty, her very average (but much taller and stronger) brother could beat her. If you removed sex segregation for swimming, there would be basically be no female swimmers. Out of curiosity, I looked at a couple of recent Olympic swimming times, in the 800m freestyle, Katie Ledecky’s gold medal final time would have placed her 27th out of 31 men in the heats. OP is right, it would have been far better to just watch 30 dudes and 1 chick for fun!

You've showed us all who you really are

you disgust me

To mirror the advice you give to people, Google is your friend and what is it ‘educate yourself’.

Plenty of us have posted studies, expert papers (not legal people posting theories on sport) and other information on the very threads you were on. Did you read any of it?

What categories that are mixed sex do you think would work for women?

I presume you're thinking along the lines of weight and/or height? This wouldn't work because short skinny men are still stronger, faster etc. than most women.

What categories could you devise that are mixed sex but don't massively disadvantage women?

Unless you plan to pair up women with 80 year old men and 6 year old boys.