Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Do you believe in safeguarding? Have you read the Cass report?

As a feminist do you believe that women should live in a safe environment where their rights are protected?

I agree everyone should have a right to protection from discrimination, violence and privacy.

How do you square these rights and protections with the rights and protections of women and girls?

Ha! Snap! Snap! Snap!

Three of us answered with the same points generally.

Yes of course I’ve read the cass report. Plenty of it didn’t say what people think it said. Much of it was terrible . Denying trans children healthcare is not “safeguarding”, but anyways this is a diff thread.

How do you square these rights and protections with the rights and protections of women and girls?

Any conflict between the two is grossly exaggerated.

I must confess I hadn't read the full thread (wrist slap for me) I will hunt for then other reply to that bit now.

So you can’t imagine any sports where women would be better than men?

Yep. And I cannot imagine anyone who is open to having any kind of discussion calling those who disagree with them ‘fascists’. It is the very epitome of a closed mind. And actually authoritarian in style because doing so is only even to silence through demonisation and vilification.

And posters wonder why they get deleted for using such derogations against people they disagree with.

It's a very real issue and women are saying quite clearly that they do not want biological men in their single sex spaces.

I'm interested in your opinion on that?

puberty blockers - there is no evidence that using puberty blockers for children is an appropriate and proportionate treatment. Alongside evidence that they actually cause harm. It is prudent to stop their use if and until there evidence that their use is appropriate.

cross sex hormones - I don't think I've ever seen or heard of any feminists suggesting that adults shouldn't be allowed to take cross sex hormones if that's what their HCP thinks will help them. Where have you seen this argued and by which feminists?

Imposition of mandatory psychotherapy and other unwanted “therapies” (basically conversion practices), - say what? Again, which feminist has argued this and where?

the right to have their gender legally recognised, - do you mean acquire a GRC? There would be no issue with this if it didn't confuse gender with sex, and allow males with a GRC access to female spaces/categories.

the right to protection from discrimination and violence , - seriously? Which feminists have you seen arguing for this and where?

the right to privacy, - again, which feminists and where?

now for kids to have their pronouns and names respected in school, - that's not a right. Social transition is not a neutral act. I've not ever seen any feminist arguing that a child's name shouldn't be used.

the right to participate in sports without discrimination - being asked to compete in the sex category that you belong in is not discrimination.

I could go on.

I once worked with a guy who was very open in his belief that women are inferior to men. He said that if we
weren’t we wouldn’t be all over the world fighting for equality.

There has been discussion around ultra marathon. I mean the most Extreme marathons.

But that also seems to be partly because women just keep running longer rather than them being faster.

Equestrian was mentioned but that seems to be because of the horse.

My opinion on that is that it’s rooted in transphobia- fear of trans people as a group/ a belief that they are predators.

And he was an ignorant man.

So you advocate for sterilising and mutilating children who often are either gay or autistic.

You don't want any underlying reasons for suddenly wanting to abandon their sex - such as in the cases of sexual abuse of female children - you'd happily just crack on regardless.
You are happy to advocate for gay conversion practices in the form of transing gay children who might come from homophobic backgrounds/families/cultures.

You advocate for self ID in all forms, regardless of the harms to female sex segregated places, religious women who cannot share those spaces, abuse victims etc.

Which kind of discrimination are you against? Because yes no one should have to put up with violence against them just because they are different, but some kinds of discrimination is necessary in certain areas. Discrimination is not always the bad word you think it is.

Right to privacy as in the right to obfuscate your sex? So sex by coercion etc is fine and well by you then. People should be able to change name and no one should be allowed to have access to previous names - making it much easier for sex offenders to hide a history of sex offending for example?

You're happy with the social transition pathway that leads to sterilisation and mutilation of healthy children.

And that male people should be allowed to invade and take over female sport - meaning that female sports would become completely obsolete.

Hmmm no issues there then is there?..

This is for a different thread. I disagree with you on all points raised.

I think women and men are different and that's fine. Not better or worse just different. Another poster on another thread said we are 2 sides of the same coin and I think that sums it up perfectly (and very simply too I know).

Why should you expect women to be "better" than men at sport? Women are not competing against men and the comparator should not be men, but other women! Women's sport is worthwhile on its own merit.

Think about weight categories in sports like judo. You can enjoy watching each weight category and consider the impressive physical feats of the top athlete in each weight category. No one spends their time thinking about whether there's any situation where the lowest weight category would be "better" than the highest weight category. Because that's not a question that makes sense.

Do you think women subjected to rape and abuse are transphobes because they don't want men in their refuges and rape groups?

Aw no. I did the same thing. And said almost the same things. It is funny. Because some posters just couldn’t see how males would have advantages in those sports at all.

So you advocate for sterilising and mutilating children who often are either gay or autistic.

it’s this kind of extremism that justifies that word.

But listen, I know what you believe, you know what I think, there’s not a chance of you and I having a productive exchange on this subject. You asked me to define why I used that term so I did.

Again, despite Helle’s claims that it was used to demonise, really it wasn’t intended to be personal- I have no idea who you are and I have no personal gripe with you - it was simply intended to call out a particular authoritarian belief system that is causing great harm to a particular minority of people

Here you go, please give me yes or no answers to the following - adding as much detail as you can so we can really understand you would be lovely thank you. I certainly wouldn't want to misinterpret or misunderstand you!

• Should females be allowed to say no to males at all?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated sports?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated prisons?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated rape crisis centres?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated health care?
• Should females be allowed any kind of single sex anything?
• Should lesbians be forced to have sex with "lady dick"?

Besides which, better in what way?

Technique? Well I prefer watching female tennis and football because they have great technique rather than power. Still doesn’t mean that the average female will beat the average male and that male people don’t have competitive advantage.

Power? Well, male people have those advantages we keep discussing.

With respect to you, a lot of women and young girls don't really understand the whole trans issue (quite understandable). They just see what they perceive as biological men entering their supposed safe and private spaces. I think to brush that off as a phobia isn't helpful. Can you understand why a woman or girl, perhaps a very modest or religious female may not feel comfortable removing her clothing or being in an enclosed space with a man?

Well for that, first I think @Tandora should remind us what her definition of "woman" is. I found it illuminating.