Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Women’s sports are viewed as less interesting and important etc..

And would therefore be more interesting if men were involved?

Women's sports would be better if they had the same amount of money behind them as mens sports. Although there will always be people who aren't interested out of misogyny.

Yes those are literally the two things I said. They weren’t personal- as in directed at any specific individual or person. They were a characterisation of a particular belief system that is very dominant on mumsnet and that I consider to be unscientific and harmful. The first one in particular was a tongue in cheek pun and I see no reason why I shouldn’t use it, particularly if posters are going to call me a TRA and a MRA.

Although there will always be people who aren't interested out of misogyny.
agree

I wonder if we started to do this with what that poster has said to so many of us lately whether it would sink in?

I mean, we can peice together the deleted ones.

one of the central points made in the article: accepting sex segregation in sport as the universal default reinforces harmful gender stereotypes, as well as sex segregation in other domains

Can someone much cleverer than me please explain this in simple terms?

Gathering "evidence" of our meanie-ness 😂

It's looking like a deliberate time-wasting exercise at this point.

Very blokeish.

I’ve explained up thread. I just want to draw attention to the sheer volume/ number of posts that are just nasty, gratuitous personal attacks/ insults. This is what you get when you challenge gender critical beliefs on mumsnet. It’s probably why so few women with diff opinions speak up on this forum.

Otherwise , I’m engaging with people who are sharing views on the topic- sex segregation in sports.

Very blokeish

They were a characterisation of a particular belief system that is very dominant on mumsnet and that I consider to be unscientific and harmful.

Yes @Tandora as @SilenceInside said - the article highlights that women's sports are seen as inferior and then jumps to argue that the answer therefore is to involve men. That doesn't follow imo.

I think it's superficial about the reality of being female. As a poster on here once said, if there were an Olympic event for giving birth, 100% of medallists would be women.And no, that doesn't mean I think women who don't give birth aren't women. It means that women's bodies are incredible. LOOK at Simone Biles, the tiniest woman, under 5', the extraordinary things she is capable of. To look at her and think, ooh, she should be competing with the guys!! is just... missing the point.

I knew you'd be getting quoted in bold. I hope you're feeling contrite 😁

I engaged. You didn't reply.

This is what you get when you challenge gender critical beliefs on mumsnet. It’s probably why so few women with diff opinions speak up on this forum.

Great. I've asked you quite a few questions which have been ignored.

I wanted to know what your definition of feminism is.

But you won't define what you mean by the terms will you?

What even is sex fascism?

• Should females be allowed to say no to males at all?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated sports?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated prisons?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated rape crisis centres?
• Should females be allowed sex segregated health care?
• Should females be allowed any kind of single sex anything?
• Should lesbians be forced to have sex with "lady dick"?

I mean clearly we know you think the answer to all of the above is a resounding and loud "NO!" (Edit: apart from the should lesbians be forced to have sex with "lady dick" to which your answer would be a clear and resounding "YES!") but it would be nice if you'd correct me (with detail please) on where and why we'd be wrong for getting that impression.

I'll wait... oh look tumbleweed!

They are abusive. Because you use them to vilify and demonise.

You should always report posts that you feel are abusive. MNHQ will delete them.

You used an offensive phrase multiple times and you feel justified in doing so. It is a negative generalisation against a group of people that disagree with you. you also used it personally aimed at posters. That is a personal attack. That was your response. You call one of those terms a ‘tongue in cheek pun’?

I can see that you cannot see the issue at all.

Or, wild idea, perhaps the reason that ‘so few women with diff opinions’ are speaking up in support of you is because, luckily, most of us think your views are offensive, misogynistic & downright stupid. Please bold & italic this one. It’ll look nicer.

Basic translation:

Women shouldn't be allowed anything for themselves.

Men should be allowed to barge in and take over everything. Men should be allowed to do whatever they like with impunity, no matter the harm to women, and we aren't allowed to complain about it because otherwise that makes us bigoted sex fascists!

It's the belief that men and women are different which enables the patriarchy. If we pretend men and women are exactly the same then all sex based oppression disappears.

Queer theory bullshit.

My husband however knows a great deal about professional sports.
In the last 25 years he has strength trained countless male and female olympic and world champions across a range of sports. Oh and as well as being a coach he does have degrees in biochemistry and physiology with a history of research in both fields.

He speaks in awe of the strength, power and grit of many of his female athletes.

But they have the strength and power of women. Elite , fantastic and powerful women certainly , but women non the less.

Not once in a long career has one of his female athletes attained the same power levels as a male athlete in the gym (and god knows he pushes them and they respond) or comparable results in the pursuit of their actual discipline. Not once.

This is not denigrating to women athletes. It is simply a matter of biological fact and any expert ( not a pretendy PhD one) will tell you that.

You highlighted my posts pointing out that you were abusive. You were deleted for being abusive.

And you think that is what? Nasty? Gratuitous personal attack? Insult?

well that’s a huge one, and hard to sum it up succinctly (also not the topic).last time I tried I was accused of a word salad and it’s last.

In brief, off the top of my head. Feminism - the belief that women are equal to men, that women have historically been disadvantaged/
oppressed / confered inferior status because of misogyny/ patriarchy. That these systems of oppression are structural and deeply entrenched in all aspects of society, and that they need to be challenged and overcome, so that women can enjoy full and free personhood on an equal basis with men.

How can I define it when I’m not allowed to say it?

I have another question. In the new events of mixed medley in the pool with 2 x men and 2 x women, but each team can select who swims which stroke, it is clear the difference in speed between the men and women. It's also clear in their physique. Similarly the mixed relay on the track. Can't you see watching these mixed relays the vast difference in times between the men and women and how u fair it would be to have women compete directly against men?