Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Female athletes aren't 'weak, feeble and helpless'. However at population level, females are weaker than males. Also smaller and slower. Which means that all things being equal, ie within the same level of competition, a female will lose in sport against a male. That's why, as an example, you may have seen in the Olympics tonight, the females in the mixed medley relay, and in the 4x400 relay being slower than the males.
It doesn't mean that females are feeble or helpless - that sounds a bit infantilising. Different but of equal value. Let's face it, we give birth!

The article in the OP is interesting in some of the anecdotal evidence it gives in terms of some sports being designated through public opinion as male or female sports and the ensuing focus and funding upon those sports which are deemed more popular with the general public.

However, in that article, the obvious reason for sports being sex segregated (I.e. women actually being able to take part whereas they wouldn't qualify if competing against males) isn't really addressed. There's a fair amount of speculation - one female competitor might have been able to compete on a level playing field if she'd had a heavier vest or if the event had been held at a different time of day. And the inclusion of some outliers (a female swimmer much taller than average for female swimmers for example) is given essentially as a example of women just needing to work harder in order to take part if the sports are not sex segregated.

Ah yes because I believe females should be allowed to have things like single sex healthcare, sports, prisons, rape crisis centres to themselves and because I don't think lesbians should be forced to have sex with "lady penis" right?

Females just shouldn't be allowed to say no to men, and if they do well they're just sex fascists eh Tands? 🙄

Or am I wrong?

🚨MRA alert! 🚨

It's not a stereotype.

Venus and Serena Williams said they thought they could beat any man ranked outside of the top 200, so the 203rd ranked man said he'd play them.

He had a couple of alcoholic drinks with lunch and wiped the floor with them both. No one would call either of those women weak and feeble, they're both fantastically strong and powerful tennis players. But you combine the men's and women's competitions, and they're gone, along with any other female tennis player.

Yeah that's why

And there are even more new posters turning up pointing out the flaws in OPs posts that have not posted on the sex and gender boards. This is great.

As PP pointed out, the people claiming to be both are the sort who claim DSDs are as common as red hair.

I don’t get why you are allowed
to call me a TRA and a MRA, but I’m not allowed to use any term to characterise your position other than “gender critical”. But that’s mumsnet for you!

I’ve tried to formulate a response that isn’t just 2 words - the first one beginning with F & the second with O. But I just can’t.

Do better.

My DH and DS do this when they realise that I’m winning in the critical thinking or logic stakes. It’s classic male behaviour. Not unlike those with body dysmorphia who assume that merely identifying as a women disguises the fact that they grew up as a man. Behaviour is the biggest tell.

Boxing has weight classes to keep it fair and as inclusive as possible. If one is going to say that sex segregating it is somehow insulting to women because it accepts that they don't have male advantage and elitism therefore won't present at the same level, one might as well say that the existence of every class except heavyweight is an insult to that class, because it acknowledges the advantage of the heavier boxers.

It's absolute cack and literally everyone knows it.

"MRA alert" 🤣. I was literally just thinking either the OP is nuts- or has nuts. Possibly both.

Do you believe in any sex segregation? For example, hospital wards, prisons, refuges?

I cannot read the article as I am on my phone, but is this the one that says that female athletes should just try harder? That is we just worked harder and tried harder then we could compete directly with male athletes. That sex segregation wouldn’t be needed anymore?

It’s classic male behaviour

It's obvious you've never been schooled in feminism.

Second wave feminists have always been gender critical.

There is no such thing as gender based oppression, it's sex based oppression.

Human beings cannot change sex, therefore no matter what a man does to his body he will always be a man. Women are not trying to exclude trans identified men from women's spaces and sports because they are trans but because they are men.

The only people who think they have a sophisticated grasp on definitions of sex and gender are people who have overdosed on Judith Butler and think she's clever because she's incomprehensible. Your "huge number of feminists" who don't give a shit about women is actually a very small group of highly privileged women patting themselves on the back for being soooooo progressive.

In reality most people who recognise the reality of sex and the necessity for sex segregation, in some areas of life, would not describe themselves as feminists, they just think it's so obvious it's good old fashioned common sense.

I'm pondering at this point Tandora as to whether this is just performance art and Mumsnet is your final year project?

It would make a lot of sense.

A lot more than you believing the things you write.

That's because TRA and MRA are factual terms, not innate slurs (what would you call a trans or men's rights activists?) and "getting" facts is not something you do.

Op, I'm guessing the name-calling work you a desperate for, when MRAs don't have an answer. Is it banned here? If you think about it- if it the short word beginning with t... only the last letter is right. So, I wouldn't bother.

I’ve never understood why you are so invested in taking me down personally.

Do you have trouble with people who disagree with you?

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 see I told you.

Calling me a MRA is about as far from facts as one could be

Oh FFS OP!

Why do you keep quoting people, pasting part in bold and then saying absolutely nothing?

I honestly don't give 2 hoots what you call me, from you it would just be name flinging from who's opinion I give less than 0 credence to. I would need verification from someone sensible if you told me the time of day quite frankly.

Go for it, feel free, I'm a big strong (female, you know the real kind) woman and I can take it. Clearly I've not broken any MN rules, if you want to call names at me just be careful you don't either, I'll not report you I'm perfectly happy for you to show everyone exactly who you are... I mean no one needs the help to see you for what you are but fill your boots! 😘