to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

Perhaps read this https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073

Am I the only academic who has visions of Tandora in her viva (for her most excellent PhD) telling the examiners that the answers are out there, they just need to educate themselves?

What is offensive, is this constant barrage of emotional manipulation to distract from discussing this issue rationally.

Yes, the thread voting shows only 15 percent on this man's side but the thread is full of the angry 15 percent.

I believe Wikipedia is doing a lot of heavy lifting on this topic 🫠

😂

All this "she has a cervix", "she has a womb", "she has a vagina" - this is all NONSENSE AND RUMOUR as nothing has been put into the public domain about this particular individual's anatomy.

Khelif failed a GENDER TEST. I'd argue that should be a sex test, but you know. Testosterone tests have not been mentioned.

Therefore the ONLY conclusion is that they did DNA or chromosome testing and Khelif did not fall into the XX/Female catefgory.

The IOC have said she’s a woman though. More than once. And that they are confident. And that this is a Russian led IBA attempt to disrupt Olympic boxing.

I am trying to take this to the logical conclusion though. Should all athletes at the Games have genetic testing and we should eliminate everyone with XY chromosomes from female events?
But then why start at the Olympics- after all that’s a real waste- should we genetically test everyone say from a county level? That would make sure that XX athletes don’t lose out at the grassroots level.
Or we could go back to sex testing where you are essentially subject to a doctor examining your genitalia. We could start with that at the junior level and add genetic testing (which is more expensive…).

XY is always male. Read some more yourself https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073

There is no evidence at all that this person was born with a vagina.

Source? Why do you think Khelif has a vagina?

But to answer your question: I think people born with XY chromosomes are male. And given that Khelif has XY chromosomes, it's highly unlikely that he has a vagina, though it's possible he was born with ambiguous genetalia that resulted in him being raised as though he were a girl. But then he went through male puberty. While he may not identify himself as a man (I have no clue if he does or doesn't) he can't be a female.

Just for any person who doesn't know who Dr Emma Hilton is:

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage

Hilton EN, Lundberg TR. 2021

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

and

Here is an interesting video led by Prof Jo Phoenix, with Dr Emma Hilton and Jon Pike. OUGCRN Seminar : Sex, Gender, and Sport after Tokyo

and

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7jb9DiVtsmfavJamTOcGz3?si=hfYx8qnpSuiag9xFIHU_Sg

The Real Science of Sport Podcast: Facts and Fallacies in the trans athlete debate, a conversation with Dr Emma Hilton.

and

idrottsforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/devineetal221129.pdf

”When Ideology Trumps Science: A response to the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport’s Review on Transwomen Athletes in the Female Category”

Cathy Devine, Emma Hilton, Leslie Howe, Miroslav Imbrišević, Tommy Lundberg, Jon Pike

Independent Scholar; University of Manchester; University of Saskatchewan; Open University (UK); Karolinska Institutet

29 November 2022

The IOC have said she’s a woman though. More than once. And that they are confident.

And their source for this info is Khelif's passport. They've been very clear about that too.

I am trying to take this to the logical conclusion though. Should all athletes at the Games have genetic testing and we should eliminate everyone with XY chromosomes from female events?

In this case there is ambiguity as they've already failed gender testing. They also haven't appealed that decision and for everyone's information an appeal would have gone to another body, not the IBA.

So, we have significant ambiguity and a duty of care to the women in the competition. So the IOC commissions their own test. Isn't that the obvious answer here?

He has never had a vagina. He is a man. Why do you think he has?? https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073

No one has both XX and XY chromosomes...

I was trying to be polite, although feeling frustrated and upset by the original post. On reflection it sounds passive aggressive and I could have done better.

It’s just disturbing and upsetting to witness what has been happening on social media the last few days on this topic, and to contemplate how it will affect that poor Algerian woman’s life, as well as a broader community of women and girls with sex variations.

The statement issued but the IBA made it very clear that testosterone levels were not tested. The IOC have accepted the female maker on the competitors passports as proof of eligibility to compete in the women's boxing competition.

Their is no documentary evidence about the anatomy of either of the boxers who were excluded from female competition by the IBA so how do you know the individual you are talking about has a cervix. It's usually only HCP's in obstetrics or gynaecology who would get to look at a cervix so where have you got this information from.

Your post tells us the truth about male and female testosterone levels, healthy women never have a testosterone level within the normal range for men, there is no overlap in normal ranges at all.

Isn’t this the literal definition of intersex though. Its ambiguous genitalia which means the individual might have a micro penis or a vagina but the biology is always generally XY - which is male.

The IOC say anyone whose passport says 'f' is a woman. And lots of countries allow anyone to have their passport say 'f' if they choose. So that's meaningless.

Reduxx took down that story about it all being a Russian plot, I'll try to find the receipts.

And yes I think the Olympics should go back to cheek swabbing all athletes to check their eligibility, it was quick and simple. Why did they stop - it wasn't to benefit women, but to benefit countries cheating in women's sports by fielding athletes with DSDs (5ARD) and male athletes with special gender feelings. The IOC threw women under the bus in the name of inclusion for males.

No she wasn’t, she was banned but the test results were never released publicly so it’s all conjecture. The IoC spokesman said that she had passed all the tests needed to compete. That will include a standard doping test. They also said that the IBA’s tests were “cobbled together”. It’s also worth pointing out that the IBA are not the official boxing governing body.

Bach's confidence is eroding rapidly though, he confirmed this morning that both men have DSDs and that he wants to hear if there's a scientific test. What a joke at this stage.

Cheek swabs for screening. Any DSDs can then be properly assessed and the right sex category is then obvious. That's all that's needed.

Oh... I see you have also noticed there are never any evidence linked up to posts too.

Having XY chromosomes is not sufficient to make a person male. There are people born with XY chromosomes who are medically and legally female.

How? It's the basic difference between the sexes, is it not? Females don't have a Y chromosome. When babies are born with DSDs, they undergo genetic testing to find out whether they are genetically male or female. What else is there?

Why don’t they clear this up by performing a chromosome test on these athletes. If they are XX I will shut up.

He's a man though. He knows that. He's done this to himself for money.

He wasn't, but it may have appeared as if he had a vulva as his penis was deformed/not developed. That all changes during puberty. Remember he was born in an impoverished country where giving birth can be brutal and medical assistance scarce.