to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

In what way?

It’s possible to change the sex recorded on your passport these days. Even in the UK it’s fairly easy. I think a letter and a sponsor is all that’s needed.
So if possession of female documentation is all that’s needed to be a woman, then women’s sports are up shit creek.

Having female paperwork shouldn’t be enough to qualify as a woman for competitive sports.

@Tandora DOCTOR Emma Hilton is a qualified developmental biologist and has written a book on testosterone. No wonder your views are so uneducated and ill informed if you like to ignore the experts

Emma Hilton is a developmental biologist and an expert in this area. She has consulted and worked on the guidelines for World Athletic, World Rugby and World Swimming with regard to fairness in the womens division.

She doesn't, as far as I know, call people like Castor Semanya and these boxers men, but she does call them male as that is what they are.

Athletes with DSD are sometimes difficult to place. Male people who have gone through male puberty, and in this case these boxers seem to fit this category, are excluded by the sporting federations mentioned above from participating in the womens category.
Other male athletes, with CAIS for example (the women who are xy but have a womb, no ovaries and no natural puberty) are the grey area if they should or should not be eligible. But these women, who have indeed male chromosomes, should not be the leverage to say if you let that xy person in, you should let them all in, and that is what is happening.

The boxers that are currently being accused of being male, could shut this all down by providing evidence of being xx. My guess is they can't as they know full well they both have gone through male puberty.

At what point DO we call such people male?!

that’s an excellent question, and the answer is often (not always) ambiguous and a matter of clinical judgement at any given time.

Are we saying that any ambiguity over external genitalia in a baby automatically makes them female, and that no one can be male with a slight difference (DSD)

No. Some may be male. The vast majority of people with XY chromosomes have male genitals. A small minority have ambiguous genitals , and an even smaller minority have female genitals. Some people with DSDs are male, others are female. Others are intersex. The appearance of someone’s genitals doesn’t automatically determine their sex , nor do someone’s chromosomes automatically determine their sex. There are multiple components to sex development, with variations at all stages.

And if someone is in good faith mistakenly raised as female (because it's really not that clear before puberty) is that enough of a reason to let them physically fight against actual females?

This is a question for policy, no biology/ science and therefore opinion will come into it.

To be honest there’s no reason this should be a trial by social media. The various sporting bodies should have made a fair and unanimous ruling decades ago and women with an unfortunate mix of chromosomes should have been warned that they would have difficulty qualifying for female events.

We are now arguing amongst each other because the governing bodies have suddenly pretended that they can’t do their jobs and are claiming to be utterly perplexed about human biology. It’s ridiculous. Too many organisations are stirring up arguments on social media with issues they would have previously sorted out with a phonecall.

This may blow your mind but in most subjects there are various experts with various different opinions.

I myself have a PhD in this subject and have produced numerous peer review publications.

if Emma Hilton thinks that she is the one to decide that someone is designated “male” (a semantic claim after all) simply because they have male pattern chromosomes, regardless of the rest of their physiological (and social ) development (not to mention the doctors that treat said persons, the law, and the self knowledge of said persons themselves), then regardless of her qualifications she is an ideologue spreading cruel and meaningless information.

quite

People with MRKH are XX and have ovaries. They are women, without a doubt. (That’s not to say women without ovaries aren’t women - all lions are cats; not all cats are lions.)

People with 46 XY 5ARD have testes and are biologically male. Adults have been through a testosterone influenced male puberty. They are definitely male, however they identify. They have never menstruated, so they know they have a DSD even if they have not found out which one.

There are other XY DSDs that result in people having a largely female appearance e.g. Swyers (no ovaries) and CAIS, with resistance to testosterone so their body develops on a female pattern.

This is unfair, and difficult for these people, as many other disabilities or medical conditions are. They should be treated kindly and fairly.

People with 46 XY 5ARD do not have any place in women’s sports. That’s dangerous in contact sports, and increasing unfairness to women cannot be justified because life has been unfair to people with DSDs.

Leave the XX women in their XX category. The XY category should now be having a discussion on what XY means for sports. Women XX always have to move over and have their boundaries broken. Why not have the XY people now in an XY discussion. Leave XX women out of this.

@taylorswift1989 There is a condition - or rather a group of conditions referred to as 'Differences in Sex Development (DSD), involving genes, hormones and reproductive organs, including genitals.

For most people these things all align to the one sex - so either a male or a female. In those individuals unfortunate enough to have a DSD, the effects will vary, depending on how these 3 things are not aligned. In the case of Imane Khelif it is believed that he/she was born with female genitalia, was raised, not surprisingly as a female, but has XY chromosomes

This situation has nothing to with the Trans situation, which originally many people thought it was and made their feelings known on the situation as if this were a Trans person. Quite different situation and a really hard one

EDITED To ADD Sorry! In the time it took me to make my post ( lots of distractions) I see this has basically already been pointed out by others

Also... xxy not xy. She chose with her family to be raised as a woman and has female genitalia. Not male!

Ifs awful how we are treating another human being. Absolutely abhorrent.

Theres much more to get upset about in the world than this.

Some people with DSDs are male, others are female. Others are intersex.

No. All humans including those with DSDs are either male or female. Different DSDs occur in males and females but people with DSDs are still male or female, with a rare medical condition. No one is 'intersex' and people with DSDs have asked that term not to be used as it causes a confusion that they are somehow neither male nor female but in between. There isn't an in between.

I am sorry for someone who it seems has a DSD and was wrongly identified as female having been born in a developing country without means to identify this. It will have been identified once they didn't get female puberty, so this isn't news to them.And I'm not so sorry that I think they should be allowed to destroy women's sports as compensation.

OK, can you specifically justify inclusion of a person with 46 XY 5ARD in women’s sport? Given your apparent expertise in the subject, you’ll be able to explain why there would be no physical advantage to them or danger to women, without handwaving, spurious reverence to other different DSDs, or accusations of bigotry. Let’s have the science.

@Tandora i think I'm actually agreeing with you! There's nothing straightforward about these cases. I don't agree with "well, they were raised female, so this must be a case of a female with unusual chromosomes". I'm also not convinced that "XY is always male in every circumstance".

The truth is that these are neither classically male nor female, so it doesn't make sense to just chuck them in with female athletes.

I have a lot of sympathy for anyone who has been raised a certain way, and then discovers something unusual (and potentially devastating, personally, socially and professionally) about their genetics. But I have more sympathy with a woman getting punched in the head by such an athlete.

You have a PhD in developmental biology and you posted 'Some people with DSDs are male, others are female. Others are intersex.'?

Okay.

Who are you talking about here? XXY = Kleinfelter’s syndrome.

I will respond on this point.

people with DSDs have asked that term not to be used as it causes a confusion that they are somehow neither male nor female but in between

”people with DSDs” as you apparently like to call them, do not all have one brain/ opinion , nor do you speak for them. So please stop repeating this.

There are lots of people in the world with diverse sex development who are intersex and embrace this terminology.

How do you know what his genitals looked like when he was born? Were you there?

The IBA issued a statement saying that two boxers had been excluded from female competition following an unspecified gender test which suggested they had an unfair physical advantage over females. The IOC has decided that a female marker on their passports is all the evidence they need to provide to prove eligibility. I bet both boxers are still weighed to make sure they compete in the correct weight category but apparently confirming sex is unnecessary.

Some women (XX chromosomes) are born without vaginas, they are still female.

There's a reasonable discussion to be had about policy for sports. None of that reasonable policy discussion involves calling her by the wrong pronouns or calling her a man. Try to remember that these are actual human beings. I don't understand how anyone can not feel compassion for someone like Caster Semenya finding out at 18 in front of the whole world that she has a DSD and losing her career.

If you found out as an adult, perhaps when trying to have children, that you had a DSD would you suddenly feel like a man? I'm very sure that I wouldn't.

By the way, this is why "define a woman" is a stupid demand.

Excellent post 🩷

How would you know?

She was identified as female at birth. She was raised as a girl.

Why would she think she was otherwise?

@FOJN because that's how sex is generally assigned at birth. Not too hard to figure out.

@Tandora you mention you have a PhD. Could I ask what the subject of your degree was

Does she have XX OR XY chromosome?