to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

No offense OP but you don't know what you are talking about from a medical perspective. I thought the same as you until I did some research on the subject of SDS. I now know that it is possible be female with XY chromosomes.

It's annoying when people pretend they know better than experts when they haven't even bothered to really educate themselves on the subject.

Their passport is the first thing to look at apparently.

Here is the IBA statement

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

The IOC's source for Khelif being female is a passport. No testing has been done.

Women should stop talking because it puts this athlete in danger

I am just going to plop this down here because I can see that the impact on one particular male athlete has been hinted at.

For those like Nancy Kelley who used the tactic of pushing the responsibility of fear to try to silence Nicola Adams as below:

https://x.com/Nancy_M_K/status/1819308546992865664

NancyMK 2 Aug 2024 10.45 am

Please remove this post. Not only is it inaccurate (Imane is not trans), it leaves her at grave risk in her own country.

(NOTE: Nicola did not say that the athlete was trans at all, in fact, Nicola was accurate in her statement. But that did not stop Nancy.)

And apparently Pink News also published something about all this discussion being dangerous.

I think this danger needs to be taken seriously.

If they are in danger, they need to be protected and this needs to be raised immediately so steps can be taken and this competitor can be kept safe.

However, it is NOT for female athletes to accept being put in harms way because the IOC has flawed and unfair policies and put this athlete into this situation. It is not for female athletes to be a protective shield for this athlete. This situation was entirely preventable. It should have been anticipated by the IOC. It is another piece of their negligence.

It is not female athletes fault or their responsibility.

Only a misogynist would ever suggest this.

What is so abhorrent about suggesting a person with XY chromosomes should fight other people with XY chromosomes? If a person is not categorically male nor female why must they compete against women? Where sex is ambiguous, why is it unfair to say they may compete with the men?

I think this is right. I'm a biologist and I learned years ago that this was a problem in the olympics.

Karyotyping was invented in the 50s. Karyotyping is the name of the laboratory process used to figure out what chromosomes a person has.

Quite early on after karyotyping was invented, they looked at olympic athletes to see what was going on there. They figured out that a lot of the women were XY, in spite of looking like women and apparently being women. I don't know exactly what they concluded, but I suspect they gave up thinking about it in those terms I think, because it turned out to be super complicated.

The discussion has come to the fore just now, because the debate about trans women in sport has caused us all to look at the issue again.

But this issue of DSD has been known about for about 70 years. It's not about trans women. It's about people who are physically on the borderline between being male and female and who consequently have a tremendous advantage in women's sport.

It seems that in boxing this issue just hasn't be properly dealt with. That situation needs to change.

My other question in all of this is - Why are people hitting each other in the face and calling is sport? If human biology is this complicated, could we at least ask people to stop hitting each other in the face until we work it out?

What’s really annoying is these individuals who have these conditions being deliberately sought out by scouts and put into women’s competitive events.

Lots of people can be born with atypical organs but genetics don’t lie.

does this look like someone who thinks he’s a woman?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214911216300273

I found this case fascinating (this is a UK case) This is a person who was told at 15 they had DSD but also did present as a woman externally and did have a minimal despite a male genotype. Who did carry a pregnancy to term in her own uterus.

I think so, yes. Vagina, womb, and fallopian tubes.

If she has swyer syndrome, as a lot of people are suggesting, she’ll have XY chromosomes (which, yes, is male) but due to deletions on particular genes will never have developed testes (or ovaries, for that matter).

Due to the lack of testes she will not have produced enough testosterone in utero to form male external genitalia. In the absence of testosterone, female external genitalia will automatically form. This is why understandably she would have been assigned female at birth - she would have appeared entirely female, and nobody would have known about the XY chromosomes or lack of ovaries.

However, it does appear she’s gone through puberty, and male puberty at that based on her masculine appearance and purportedly high testosterone levels. Normally, people with swyer syndrome produce neither male nor female hormones, due to their lack of testes and ovaries, so have to take hormone supplements to go through puberty. If I had to guess, I’d say she’s taken testosterone at some point to go through male puberty, and may still be taking it, which does give her an advantage over biological women who’ve gone through female puberty.

There are other conditions relating to the adrenal glands which can cause high testosterone even in people with swyer syndrome, so that’s a possibility too. It just seems less likely.

That is literally just me speculating, though. I don’t know the truth. It’s a complicated one. I think she’s had a tough time and I don’t like all the hate she’s receiving. On the other hand, if she’s gone through male puberty I don’t think she should compete against women who’ve gone through female puberty. And I’m not really sure how we’d verify what has actually gone down, short of rifling through her medical history.

The IOC are corrupt liars who have obfuscated the truth of what they've been doing for many years.

They've been aided and abetted by large swathes of the media with no journalistic integrity.

Make no mistake putting males into female sport, often at the forefront of female sport as we saw in Rio 2016, is deliberate policy.

What else is there?

There’s a lot else.

Start with a very basic, and generally trusted resource, the NHS website. Theres a fair amount of information, in general, and about specific variations in development.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Why are people randomly deciding Khelif js XXY? Where the hell has that nugget come from?! That doesn't make sense re any of the alleged info 🤣

This person is firstly highly atypical and secondly, didn't have a system set up to produce large gametes (eggs) which is the defining characteristic of being female.

This person is a highly atypical male.

She’s intersex, so she’s very unlikely to have a vagina, even if she doesn’t have visible male genitalia. She deserves compassion and understanding. Other athletes also deserve to compete safely. She has clearly gone through male puberty, resulting in male musculoskeletal development, so should have been genetically tested years ago. Whether she chose to live as a woman or man after that is up to her. Whether she gets to compete professionally as a woman or a man is not up to her. It is clear that the inquiry into this decision and the communication about that decision to fellow athletes has been very poor.

It's one of those things that the internet cannot determine. The IOC need to do their own test and put this all to bed.

My other question in all of this is - Why are people hitting each other in the face and calling is sport? If human biology is this complicated, could we at least ask people to stop hitting each other in the face until we work it out?

i can’t personally understand it either, but lots of men and women apparently enjoy both participating in and watching this sport 💁🏼‍♀️

So the person in the above case who gave birth to a child is an ‘atypical male’. That’s stretching the definition of male no?
If I carried a baby to term and birthed her I would very much like to be known as the mother (and I have birthed my own children and I am their mother…).

This is what I was looking for

https://x.com/Slatzism/status/1819427537740558848

Wasn't a testosterone test. Wasn't a Russian plot.

This.

And also the absolute silencing effect of Stonewall's (other transactivist organisations are available) dictum of #NoDebate andb"Transwomen are women."

No they're not. XY chromosomes mean that there is a male puberty in there - strength, muscle & bone growth, lung volume are all male.

@Tandora there's nothing in the NHS website you quote that suggests anyone with a Y chromosome is anything other than male.

Your post doesn’t ‘blow my mind’ but no science researcher I know has ever used such emotive language. You ‘yourself’ may identify as having a PhD in this subject but I bet you don’t. Emma Hilton is well respected and is using her real name. You are not.

They didn't produce their eggs, now did they?

Having a uterus is extremely atypical for a male, but they would still be classed as male if their bodies are set up to produce sperm and not eggs.

I know Emma’s qualifications to speak on this topic, what are yours then?

Absolutely!