to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

Women’s bodies make a fraction of the amount of testosterone that men do. Even in cases of PCOS the number doesn’t come close to that of a man.

We do. We pay for this. We are expected to be proud of Olympic medal winners. We are not obligated to admire cheating.

Do you have a link to that interview?

I used to agree with you but I have changed my mind. When I look at photos of him I am not seeing a strong jawline (and obviously to judge someone male or female based on their clothes or hairstyle would be ludicrous - I wear jeans and t shirts and have short hair and I am a woman). What I am seeing is a fully sexed male with all the hallmarks of a male puberty.

And do you know how I am parsing that from a photo? It's nothing to do with clothes or facial features. It's from 2 things.

It's from having sons and watching them turn into men and seeing the gradual development of male secondary sexual characteristics that happens entirely and soley through the action of testosterone during puberty. Its about recognising the collection of traits, things, features that are so familliar to me. And it's not about inidividual thing like an Adam's Apple, or a larger than typical female nose etc. It's about the collection of traits - stance, shoulder width, height, calf muscle placement, abdominal length, a thousand other tiny things that scream male at me.

And it's also about 1000s of years of evolution that gives women a highly tuned ability to know a male when they see one. I don't know if men have the same ability but that photo does not show a masculine woman. It shows a post-pubertal man. I could forgive a man a bit of 'face-blindness' in that regard but any woman that says otherwise is lying to themselves.

Same happened to me when I entered my daughter's sack race at school.

Nobody cared until I started overtaking some 8 year olds that they started saying isn't she one of the parents.

Sore losers.

Oh the irony. Misogyny in the transphobic movement? No misogyny in the trans movement more like. The hatred of women in case you didn't know.

Mumsnet is a cesspool of hate. I have seen nothing like it since before the Incel community on Reddit was shut down. It is vile.

Cesspool of Hate will be my band name.

You excell at a particular sport, you train, you rise up through the rank to set your sights on Olympic glory. You and your family make enormous sacrifices and you look set to make it. Then one day you receive a devastating medical diagnosis, you have leukemia or Parkinson or polio or rheumatoid arthritis and you can longer compete at elite level.
It is devastating but you have to come to terms with material reality.
Why should the fact that that diagnosis is a DSD be any different?
Oh and thanks to unscrupulous people often the sporting dreams of those with a DSD that lead to them being incorrectly sexed at birth begin with diagnosis rather than ending with it.

You're not saying babies are born with a sex are you? How hateful.

People don't seem to understand that women produce androgens which are essential for many body systems including the cardiovascular, muscular and skeletal systems. A male with androgen insensitivity would never achieve the fitness required for elite sporting competition so any discussion of this DSD is a moot point.

Yes, when they cynically exploit it for money by punching women.

Khalif stated this? Not Semenya? Do you know where the interview is? (Not doubting you - would like to read it.)

Well World Boxing has now said he’s a man, so well see when he sues them and proves us wrong…

God I hope you are not a biology or medical postdoc.

'female is the default developmental path' was debunked many years ago.

Quite. It’s not about the clothes. It’s not about looking butch. It’s not about short hair. It’s about the obvious differences between males and females.

And the failed tests to qualify as a woman, of course

The interview doesn’t exist.

His birth certificate is dated 2018

Oh and thanks to unscrupulous people often the sporting dreams of those with a DSD that lead to them being incorrectly sexed at birth begin with diagnosis rather than ending with i

Such as?

Those kids obviously weren't trying hard enough.

I’m agog for all the footage of men’s Olympic medals being unexpectedly swiped by fresh young talent who have chromosomes and sex markers that are universally associated with female biology.

Because I’m sure there must be some. Right? And of course the mens are totes kewl with it, which is why there isn’t a big fuss. Yep.

I'm assuming it's a replacement cert.

When my husband died, I needed my birth cert for some official body. (Can't remember now...could fined the marriage cert, but not the birth.)

Sent off for one and it says it was issued 3 years ago.

Sorry, I'm a bit lost. Whose birth certificate? Khelif?

I quite like the suggestion of toxic cauldron. Both sound quite badass.

Yes, Khelif's. I do think this is a male with a DSD, but I don't think this certificate is evidence of that.

That's what I meant. If it were me subject to all this scrutiny and I was trying to compete, I'd just get tested, publish it, and the say "right you lot, fuck off".

I do understand, though, that the counter argument would be " why should I have to?" Which I also support.

This is objectively true

Actually there’s nothing “objective” or “true” about it. It’s a matter of perspective. For example, as evidence this is true , someone mentioned how 57(?) men (something like this) in the swimming heats beat the female world record For 100m swimming . Theres about maybe 1 billion men in the world in the relevant age category. So being equivalent to the 58th man would make that woman faster at swimming 100 metres then 9.999999% of men. (A very silly rough sum but you get the point).

As for women’s football, tbf football hasn’t historically been a female sport so the opportunities for women aren’t there.

Yes, the top female athletes will be beaten by the top male athletes, but Comparing the sporting performance of top female athletes to “mediocre” and “shit” men is degrading, and it does make me feel despondent about women’s sports that people look at women this way.