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to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

1000 replies

taylorswift1989 · 03/08/2024 11:55

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
StressedAndDepressed1 · 03/08/2024 17:15

She does not have a penis. She is from a very conservative country, in which she would be killed if she was trans.

And she just won again!!

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:15

Runningupthecurtains · 03/08/2024 17:09

Because they are the best woman.

Again as you have now ignored this twice do you think there shouldn't be sex tests because there shouldn't be M and F categories or because there should be categories but based on self id?

I don’t have all the answers here. I think there needs to be some stratification of sport - eg we have the paraolympics etc. in fact I think there should be much more stratification, to highlight lots more talent and improve inclusion. not sure whether binary sex should remain one simple stratification, or there should be more nuanced criteria. If binary sex remains the stratification I think the current rules - which allowed the Algerian boxer to fight in the women’s sports- are completely fine and appropriate.

SpidersAreShitheads · 03/08/2024 17:15

Fluufer · 03/08/2024 17:08

Because women can be exceptional without needing to be measured against biological men.

Absolutely this 💯.

It’s mind-boggling that this even needs to be said but apparently it does…

Women have a biological disadvantage compared to men hence why our achievements are celebrated in our own sex class.

The best women can’t compete with the best men no matter how hard they train - because biology matters.

OvaHere · 03/08/2024 17:15

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:05

What’s the point in female champions if they’re no better than “shit men”?

Because female champions should be judged on our own merits in our own sex class. It's the people allowing shit men into women's sport who are the problem here.

Or do you think there's a point where women will transcend biology and start walloping the likes of Tyson Fury?

Is this why male's with DSDs and gender ideology in general appeals to you so much? Because if you pretend hard enough these men are women then you can tell yourself women can be equal to men in every way?

I mean, it's a nice fantasy but one that involves ignoring the reality of women's lives and what we have to contend with because we are not men.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 17:15

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:05

What’s the point in female champions if they’re no better than “shit men”?

Are you serious?

The point in female champions is to celebrate the exceptionality of female athletes.

Do you honestly not understand the reason that female sports exist as a protected category? I did wonder the other day when you indicated something about female people always being 'equal' to male people as something that feminists believe.

No. Female people are not 'equal' to male people in the way you are trying to position the point.

Female people are 'equal' to male people in many instances. However female people are not male people. Their bodies are not 'equal' to male people in the way that you seem to be trying to say they are.

However, female sports events are to celebrate the very best performance that people with female sexed bodies can perform. They are as fit as the male athletes. They work at least as hard as the male athletes. They have to approach sports differently in some or maybe many instances. They have to cope with menstruation and pregnancy and the negative impacts of sexism. Their kit is most usually adapted for their bodies.

That is equity. We need equity to achieve equality of opportunity.

Female people are not just small male people.

Angrymum22 · 03/08/2024 17:15

Wimberry · 03/08/2024 17:11

I have a female friend with a condition that was born female, raised female, appeared female in every way. She only found out that her chromosomes were different when she wanted to have a baby. She has related health issues - problems with bone density and arthritis at a young age - but there is nothing 'masculine' about her.

How on earth do you think you've got the right to declare someone like her to be male? There are multiple factors that have to align to be biologically male or female, and nature is more complicated than that. But I guess you aren't able to understand beyond the simplified system you were taught at school. Grow up and read a book, and take your misogyny dressed as feminism elsewhere.

But by admission your friend appeared very female. This boxer does not.

californiaisdreaming · 03/08/2024 17:16

@Wimberry
"How on earth do you think you've got the right to declare someone like her to be male?"

Does she have eggs in her ovaries?
Does she have sperm?

It's got nothing to do with rights or how someone was raised.

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:16

Wimberry · 03/08/2024 17:11

I have a female friend with a condition that was born female, raised female, appeared female in every way. She only found out that her chromosomes were different when she wanted to have a baby. She has related health issues - problems with bone density and arthritis at a young age - but there is nothing 'masculine' about her.

How on earth do you think you've got the right to declare someone like her to be male? There are multiple factors that have to align to be biologically male or female, and nature is more complicated than that. But I guess you aren't able to understand beyond the simplified system you were taught at school. Grow up and read a book, and take your misogyny dressed as feminism elsewhere.

Thank you for this.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 03/08/2024 17:16

StressedAndDepressed1 · 03/08/2024 17:15

She does not have a penis. She is from a very conservative country, in which she would be killed if she was trans.

And she just won again!!

No one has said she is trans!

AIstolemylunch · 03/08/2024 17:16

Wimberry · 03/08/2024 17:11

I have a female friend with a condition that was born female, raised female, appeared female in every way. She only found out that her chromosomes were different when she wanted to have a baby. She has related health issues - problems with bone density and arthritis at a young age - but there is nothing 'masculine' about her.

How on earth do you think you've got the right to declare someone like her to be male? There are multiple factors that have to align to be biologically male or female, and nature is more complicated than that. But I guess you aren't able to understand beyond the simplified system you were taught at school. Grow up and read a book, and take your misogyny dressed as feminism elsewhere.

If your friend has CAIS then all the people that actually understand the biological basis of DSD on this thread have said that they would view her as a woman.

I take it that she's not competing at a high level in womens sports though?

FrenchFancie · 03/08/2024 17:17

Ok to start with I’m going to separate out the OPs question about genetics and sexual characteristics, and the boxers in the olympics.

if you simply define woman as XX and man as XY then yes, women don’t have XY chromosomes. That’s fairly simple biology but doesn’t reflect some of the developmental issues that can arise though. Other posters have spoken at length about this and they are scientifically correct, there are times when XY chromosomes can produce a child that is identified as female, doesn’t go through a male puberty and grow to adulthood without necessarily knowing that they are XY. In some developing countries they get married and only discover issues when they try to have children and are, of course, infertile because they are not producing ova. There can be a variety of androgen insensitivity issues whereby, although XY, the body’s cells either don’t respond at all to androgens (such as testosterone) or respond only slightly. These people can appear very feminine, or more androgynous.

basically human developmental biology is complex and fascinating and not nearly as straightforward as XX - female and XY - male.

turning to the boxers. We have no idea what the medical position of the two boxers concerned is. For whatever reason, they have not chosen to share their intimate medical records, as is their right to do, I suppose.

IF the boxers have not gone through a male puberty and therefore not had the advantage that has on muscle and bone development, then it is right and fair that they compete in the female category. They are functionally female.

IF they have gone through a male puberty, then they have advantages over women and it isn’t safe or fair for them to compete with women.

the difficult case comes if they have partial androgen insensitivity. I suppose each athlete would have to be assessed on an individual basis - how ‘male’ their muscle and bone density is, perhaps. Because I’m not a sports scientist I have no idea if it’s even possible to assess this.

all of this is impossible to accurately judge on looks alone. Women CAN look very masculine, especially if tall and muscular.

in short, a) it depends on how you define what female is, but most biologists will say it’s not always clear cut.
b) it very much depends on the medical history of the athletes concerned. It’s not something we can or should be judging on appearance alone.

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:17

AIstolemylunch · 03/08/2024 17:10

Perhaps being on the minority side defending VAWG should tell you something then?

No one is defending VaWG.

AGoingConcern · 03/08/2024 17:17

YABU are think you know what chromosomes she has.

That came from one statement made to Russian media by an official at the IBF - an organization that has been banned by the IOC (an extraordinary step) for overwhelming, sustained corruption on multiple levels. They failed to provide any evidence, didn’t follow established procedures, and their story doesn’t really make sense.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 03/08/2024 17:18

StressedAndDepressed1 · 03/08/2024 17:15

She does not have a penis. She is from a very conservative country, in which she would be killed if she was trans.

And she just won again!!

No one is saying they are trans.

They very clearly have a penis.

x.com/clownworld_/status/1819362202127679740?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

WickedSerious · 03/08/2024 17:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 17:09

I am stepping away from what can only be called hateful bullying and toxic cauldron.

Toxic cauldron, eh? Sounds a tad misogynistic.

'Toxic Cauldron' would be a great name for a band.

FOJN · 03/08/2024 17:18

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:05

What’s the point in female champions if they’re no better than “shit men”?

Wow, really.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-venus-serena-williams-lost-203rd-ranked-male-tennis-player-swimmer-riley-gaines-inclusion-trans-athletes

Most people would still say the Williams sisters are remarkable althetes but according to you their achievements mean nothing if they can't beat mediocre men.

Tell us again how much of a feminist you are.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 03/08/2024 17:18

AGoingConcern · 03/08/2024 17:17

YABU are think you know what chromosomes she has.

That came from one statement made to Russian media by an official at the IBF - an organization that has been banned by the IOC (an extraordinary step) for overwhelming, sustained corruption on multiple levels. They failed to provide any evidence, didn’t follow established procedures, and their story doesn’t really make sense.

The WBO have corroborated and the testing was carried out in CSA labs. You're wrong.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 17:18

The governing body who failed her (which is one of many, there's no single authority in boxing) has a lot of issues re their credibility so it's not as reliable as is being made out.

The World Boxing Organisation European Vice President has also come out and said they know Khelif is male. The IOC themselves had to walk back a statement this morning they made saying it wasn't a "DSD case" so it clearly fucking is.

All your "points" have been robustly addressed on other threads.

NImumconfused · 03/08/2024 17:19

StressedAndDepressed1 · 03/08/2024 17:15

She does not have a penis. She is from a very conservative country, in which she would be killed if she was trans.

And she just won again!!

If that's the case why does Khelif wear typically male clothes - surely that gwould be unacceptable for a woman in a very Conservative country?

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 17:19

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:09

Once again it’s the minority side of the debate who are having their posts deleted 🙄

No.

Please stop attempting to claim victimhood here.

If people's posts are deleted it is because they are either personally attacking posters, ie. abusive, or they are making negative generalisations about the posters on the thread, or MN, or a group of people. What is really not surprising though is to see you post this again. Yesterday you posted this about an abusive poster that ended up with all their posts deleted. You actively supported an abusive poster.

KielderWater · 03/08/2024 17:19

StressedAndDepressed1 · 03/08/2024 17:15

She does not have a penis. She is from a very conservative country, in which she would be killed if she was trans.

And she just won again!!

Iran is a very conservative country and has one of the highest rates of ‘sex change’ surgery in the world. Gay men are offered it instead of the death penalty.

WickedSerious · 03/08/2024 17:19

StressedAndDepressed1 · 03/08/2024 17:15

She does not have a penis. She is from a very conservative country, in which she would be killed if she was trans.

And she just won again!!

He did,because he was fighting a woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 17:21

That came from one statement made to Russian media by an official at the IBF - an organization that has been banned by the IOC (an extraordinary step) for overwhelming, sustained corruption on multiple levels. They failed to provide any evidence, didn’t follow established procedures, and their story doesn’t really make sense.

They have stated multiple times that they disqualified the two boxers based on them failing a "gender test" which was not based on testosterone levels. The two boxers had the right of appeal to the Court of Arbitration which they didn't ultimately take up.

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/08/2024 17:21

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 17:15

Are you serious?

The point in female champions is to celebrate the exceptionality of female athletes.

Do you honestly not understand the reason that female sports exist as a protected category? I did wonder the other day when you indicated something about female people always being 'equal' to male people as something that feminists believe.

No. Female people are not 'equal' to male people in the way you are trying to position the point.

Female people are 'equal' to male people in many instances. However female people are not male people. Their bodies are not 'equal' to male people in the way that you seem to be trying to say they are.

However, female sports events are to celebrate the very best performance that people with female sexed bodies can perform. They are as fit as the male athletes. They work at least as hard as the male athletes. They have to approach sports differently in some or maybe many instances. They have to cope with menstruation and pregnancy and the negative impacts of sexism. Their kit is most usually adapted for their bodies.

That is equity. We need equity to achieve equality of opportunity.

Female people are not just small male people.

As number 50000 on the list of things Tandora cannot grasp, it's a different between equality and fairness. Suppose we have a male athlete who ranks poorly among other males but fairly among women. The fight between him and another woman (who will rank much higher in her sex class than he will in his, thanks to male advantage) might, possibly be "fair" in that it is fairly matched, but it is still a loss of equality. Because an exceptional woman has lost her spot for competition against this unexceptional male. For every crap male who takes this place, an exceptional female has missed her chance because of his advantage, not because she wasn't good enough as a woman.

Tandora has literally just admitted that she doesn't see the point of female athletes if men can beat them. What level, then, is she holding this discussion on? She literally doesn't think women in sports matter at all, yet will argue for days about a male's right to be counted among them and lauded...

Tandora · 03/08/2024 17:21

FOJN · 03/08/2024 17:18

Wow, really.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-venus-serena-williams-lost-203rd-ranked-male-tennis-player-swimmer-riley-gaines-inclusion-trans-athletes

Most people would still say the Williams sisters are remarkable althetes but according to you their achievements mean nothing if they can't beat mediocre men.

Tell us again how much of a feminist you are.

I think the William’s sisters are amazing and I would never characterise their performance as equivalent to a “mediocre”
or “shit man”. I’m sure they’d smash 99.9% of men in a tennis match.

Let’s not underplay and degrade women’s talent in sport.

Serena in particular has very muscly arms which I’m sure many of the women on your side of this debate would object to.

100% I’m a feminist,

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