to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

I would respect her as knowing what her sex is.

Khalif can be any gender they like and I'm happy to respect that. They just can't box against XX if they're XY. They, and the machine that organised and funded them, attempted a gamble, that's been on the go for years, but it hasn't paid off as the tide has turned and women won't put up with it.

No such thing as intersex. There are people born with various forms of DSD, but chromosomally they are genetically men or woman, (if they have a Y chromosome then they are genetic men) and often the external and internal sexual organs have not developed at all, or properly, or in the right place, which can lead to a baby being named as the wrong sex, especially if there are not informed hospitals available to advise parents.

A man with DSD, even if he has been wrongly identified as a female child on the basis of external genital examination as an infant , will have internal testes, and when he reaches puberty they will release near normal amounts testosterone which will trigger many of the usual male pubertal markers, eg facial and body hair, muscle size and strength development, bone length, increased heart and lung size, more masculine facial features, a deeper voice etc. Because he is a man he will not develop breasts, because he is a man he will not menstruate, these are markers that should, and usually are, picked up leading to further investigation.

So what?

So regardless of semantic arguments, in situations where we try to classify people based on a simple binary understanding of sex, we run into ambiguities of where to place some individuals. People with CAIS may have male chromosomes , but you acknowledge they could participate in female sports. Others disagree with you and say all XY people belong in male sports. Sports don’t only take place at an Olympic level and sex segregation in sport operates at all levels including in schools.

You domt seem to understand DSDs as a branch of medicine very well

Well I have a doctorate that says otherwise, but thank you for
your feedback. you’re welcome to insult me if that makes you feel better. Why don’t we just stick to the substantive arguments?

The reason we separate the sexes in sport is because of the enormous advantage male puberty confers. For similar reasons we separate out sports by age group and we have separate competitions for people with certain disabilities. If we had no categories virtually all competitions would be won by males at their physical peak.

Human nature being what it is, we therefore end up in a place where every single category put in place needs to be extremely clearly defined. We can't rely on people being honest about this and only going into categories they clearly belong to.

The problem with the male/female categories is that eligibility doesn't seem to have been sufficiently clearly defined. This very lengthy thread shows that presence or absence of certain body parts isn't enough, and a simple XX/XY test isn't sophisticated enough either. We need to be much clearer that it's the effects of male puberty that have to be looked for. Nobody who's gone through male puberty should be competing in the women's category. I leave it to others to define how you test for it, but just saying 'There's an F on my passport' or 'I identify as female' is obviously far from enough.

If athletes have to be observed urinating when they're selected for a random drugs test, how can it be any more degrading or invasive to have their DNA checked as a one off, early in their career, giving them lifetime certainty that they are qualified to compete as females?

Mistakes on the sex of a baby are well known.
This is because of the way genitalia fails to develop fully and can be ambiguous.

Just because-perhaps- parents opt for one 'gender' of their baby doesn't mean it's biologically correct.

And a hospital in a less-developed country can make errors too.

@Tandora Why don’t we just stick to the substantive arguments?

Maybe take your own advice?

The only reason I know what my sex is, is biological. Periods, pregnancy, blah blah blah.

Alternatively, if any of that didn't happen, I might know due to testing.

Apart from either of those, how the hell would you know what sex you are? Are we back in ladyfeelz territory?!

'Lived experience ' doesn't do sport, bodies do.

And yes I believe the athlete does know their sex, as I believe that would have become clear at puberty when experiencing a male puberty instead of a female puberty.

I would have plenty of sympathy for individuals in the circumstances that seem to have occurred here, if they didn't then seek to take women's places and women's medals which are not rightfully theirs. Women's sports aren't a consolation prize for males who've been dealt a tough hand in life.

I think it's 'a sad reflection of today's society' that you don't care about the women who have been impacted by this situation, but only the male.

I hear an echo.

Well, it isn’t. There are plenty of genetic abnormalities that cause a person with a full set of female sex genes (the X chromosome) to develop female sexual characteristics. Look up Swyer Syndrome. And while their female sexual development may be incomplete, at a phenotypic level most people would agree that they are female.
FWIW I was shocked by the mismatch in the boxing but almost every definition of sex will throw up exceptions. Because of that I personally would focus on the inequality generated by male puberty and lifetime testosterone levels as the critical determinant.

👍🏻

Disengenouus gaslighting. The truly reprehesible individuals are:

A) the unscrupolous scouts, sporting management and coaches that deliberatly seek out males with DSDs that they know they can make money and glory of in female sports, or who put them into it as older teens when it will have been clear they had a medical issue.

B) the uknowledgeable, unscientifically or medically trained individuals that use people with an unfortunate medical conditions try and further their own political agendas around indentity politics. Even though multiple individulals with a DSD condition and bodies representing them have asked them not to do this, and not to conflate DSDs with trans. We can easily see the damage this is doing.

Truly pathetic to see such people that dont really understand these conditions use them to try and futiley convince people that 'sex isnt binary, 'queer people who are neither male or female exist', 'men can become women', 'men can grow a cervix' and all that old male secondary sex characteristics.

In my eyes chromosomes are the truest test of genetic sex.

XY = male
XX = female.

There are a tiny number of intersex/dsd conditions which are difficult to classify. They are incredibly rare.

Presentation/development of external genitalia & gonads vary far more than chromosomes. Im not sure sure it classifies as a true vagina if you have a blind/short passage that looks like a vagina but doesn't lead to a cervix or uterus or function like a vagina.

It is incredibly sad for the tiny number of individuals born with a y chromosome with the appearance of being female (or vice versa if possible) as i cannot imagine the confusion of being raised as female and discovering this later in life. I would hope in future that harmony type testing will mean DSD can be flagged at birth.

The vast majority of the world don't get to participate in elite sport. It should be noted that DSD is terrifically rare. This comes to the fore a lot in sport (there were several athletes disqualified on basis of y chromosome well before caster semenya) because the presence of Y chromosome often does, even with androgen insensitivity of some degree, confer a massive performance advantage over XX. As a result DSD is likely overrepresented among elite athletes presenting as female.

I agree AIstolemylunch.

There has been a group of posters on this thread and elsewhere who have sought to bring in discussion about male people with the differences of sex development that do not have any degree of male puberty.

If it is for general discussion, great. It is important to acknowledge that those people are out there and, significantly, that they have unique needs.

But these people should not be leveraged into the discussion to support an argument about including male people with differences of sex development who have had male puberty. Meaning, of course, that their bodies are virilised. And I think that we have some examples of that on this thread.

The discussion about those male people who have one of the group of DSDs that don't virilise their bodies is irrelevant to the discussion about the male people who do. At the moment, policies have been carefully worded to reflect the needs of that group. They are not excluded. Therefore, they are irrelevant to the discussion about excluding the group of male people who have male puberty advantages. It is a dishonest tactic to use. It also politicises that group's condition when it is not even the focus of discussion.

A thousand times this.
I googled intersex, there are people who have a scrotum with testes, a penis to one side, and an opening to the other side- It is rare, but there are degrees of intersex
( from looking briefly online)

It’s not sporting to allow an XY with XX , surely as the XY gives such a physical advantage.

His 'lived experience' is not relevant wen it comes to his biological sex.

This is perhaps a very subjective opinion, which all the PhD experts here will denounce for sure. but you only have to look at 'her' to see they look male, they have a male face, biceps of a male, the physique of a male, the power of a male.

Because I would respect her as knowing what her sex is.
@Marblessolveeverything You can respect her all you like but would you want to be in a boxing ring, supposedly competing against a 'woman' and feeling the force of those gloves?

There are people who take the view that a lack of male puberty means that CAIS individuals should be allowed into the female category, others who believe that their lack of female puberty means they should be excluded from it but neither views means that people think all DSDs should be regarded as female.
Either way the IOC should grow a pair, take a stance on what consistutes a woman and put screening/testing in place to ensure that only those who meet that criteria (be it XX, be it testosterone reactivity or something else) are able to compete as women rather than throwing their hands in the air and declaring it is all to difficult.

Personally from my take on things, the papers are getting their reporting mixed up. First of all i thought from what i read that she was a born male and transitioned into a woman, then apparently they were intersex and born with both sets of organs, now theyre saying she was born a woman with a vagina? Im unsure what to think except she has manly features. Idk what to think here 🤷🏻‍♀️

"I have to fight tomorrow against an Algerian competitor. It has been proven that he is biologically a boy. It is for this reason that he was disqualified from the 2023 world championships. I will put my life in danger."

Luca Hamori

Thoughts with her right now, in the ring with Khelif.

x.com/fe_roux/status/1819597011026374867

The truth is he was born without a “typical” penis, and he has testes, producing testosterone that are inside his body.

There is more to a woman than a vagina. More to a man than a penis.

There are MEN with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome). Due to Y, most are sterile. Some say Tom Cruise is such a man.

It’s just to darn bad that some people have a DSD difference, but having the testes, male gonads, producing Testosterone, makes them male men and makes body changes that make them not women.

Excuse me how dare you accuse me of gas lighting and then literally you go on to do it.

I am disgusted to live in a society where hypothetical situations are thrown at people when bullies are trying to provide justification for their sick ignorant comments. There is a human being individual being discussed like a hypothetical social exam question.

Shame on you, a person with a medical condition being discriminated against. Hopefully the future generations will do better.

Exactly that.
Masculine face, physique and musculoskeletal build of a male.
Confers a huge advantage in strength sports like 🥊 Boxing.