to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

Why are you bringing trans into this debate? It's about men with dsd's not trans people, it is also not transphobic to want to protect women and their rights!
Also he's a man!

There have been rare cases of XY women menstruating and giving birth. These women like people with DSDs are statistically rare. Most humans have the "normal" XY/XX chromosomal makeup.

Genetically, it absolutely does make a person male.

That particular poster is a TRA who discovered CAIS just a few days ago and is exploiting DSD's in a "sex is a spectrum/complicated" argument.

They are male. That's the reality

whose reality? Yours?

It’s not “disingenuous” to want to discuss these conditions in a thread where people are continuing to insist that xy=male and sex is uncomplicatedly binary.

Nobody knows the medical circumstances of those althletes or what tests were done.

It would be nice if this post could be a Sticky at the top of every thread on this issue.

Beautifully clear and understandable

Thank you

For those of you saying they have a vagina...

It means that person has usual male type chromosomes. Nothing more, nothing less.

I consider them genetic males with a full female phenotype, as I have previously posted. I have zero issue with these individuals, and these alone (or any other incredibly rare DSD that produces the same outcome) being treated as women, becasue they are phenotypically (functionaly) the same as females and dont go through the virilizatuon of male puberty. So still part of the binary. There is no third sex. There is no Spegg. There is no mammal producing sperm and eggs. These conditions are extremely rare and the exceptions don't disprove the rule. That XX is female and XY is male. If you're unlucky enough to be a CAIS woman then you cant be an elite athlete or have to try and hack it with the men. Or take up chess. Or be a model. Or cure cancer. Same way I can't be a supermodel or cabin crew because I'm genetically short.

If these boxers are CAIS XY males (which they clearly, phenotypically arent) then let them prove that and prove that they have the resulting testosterone levels in the normal range for a woman and then perhaps the situation would change. But this clearly isnt the case, or they would have done, and they would look like women.

Dr Emma Hilton, who has carried out research on the question of whether male advantage in sport is reduced by suppression of testosterone, has posted a helpful explanatory tweet regarding the two Olympic boxers in question:

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1819402288789590246

‘If it is, as suspected, 5ARD, this means: The baby starts developing as a healthy male (XY, testes, testosterone, all the internal plumbing). But the baby lacks a protein needed to make a penis grow. This means that baby’s external genitals can develop as female-looking. Hence, baby might be registered at birth as female.

During puberty, the male internal bits start kicking out huge amounts of testosterone (as per male) and their external genitals start to become more masculine. It’s a kind of “catch up”.

Not only that, but testosterone at puberty - produced by all that internal male biology - does all the regular stuff it does to muscles blah blah. So their body - the thing they run, jump and punch with - has developed like any other male. That’s why they shouldn’t be in female categories. It’s got precisely nothing to do with their external genitalia and what their paperwork says.’

Footage of the boxer rearranging their "vagina" like all women do.

x.com/clownworld_/status/1819362202127679740?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

She has a natural advantage.

...because she's male.

People are continuing to insist that XY = male because that is the factual truth. I know you don’t want to hear that, but that’s your problem.
I’m quite sure that if repeating the same nonsense time and again in one thread was an Olympic sport, you’d have taken gold though.

And Michael Phelps competed in the correct category for his sex class, he wasnt swimming against women, what a stupid attenpt at an argument 🙄

No, you are speculating he was born with a vulva. If we all get to speculate, I would suggest that from the information in front of us (46 XY, assumed female at birth so F on passport, very obvious adult male characteristics indicating having been through male puberty) he was likely born with 46XY 5ARD.

From a DSD charity:

If a fetus has 5-AR deficiency (5-ARD), that means that the fetus’s body lacks the enzyme 5-AR. So, early in development, the proto-gonads become testes and they start to make testosterone. But because the enzyme 5-AR is missing, the testosterone doesn’t become dihydrotestosterone. As a result, the fetus’s genitals form more like the typical female’s.

...but are not female genitals, just undeveloped male genitals.

When the child is born, the genitals may look ambiguous or fairly female-typical. (In some cases, children with 5-ARD have been assumed to be females and have been raised female.)

...but are not female, only appear so because of under developed tissue..

At puberty, the child’s testes will make lots more testosterone. Remember now the enzyme 5-AR isn’t necessary for the testosterone to have an affect on sexual maturation at this point. So the child (regardless of which gender the child was raised as) will undergo a male-typical puberty. The phallus will grow to look bigger, more like a penis, the voice will drop as it does in a typical male, the child will develop male-typical face and body hair and male-typical musculature

But this is all speculation. If I was a boxer trying to box in a woman's competition and there was any question as to my eligibility the first thing I would do is get a cheek swab and make the result public. Are these men doing this? Are they heck.

She has a vagina and a cervix.

She is a woman.

For people with high testosterone like myself, this is TERRIFYING

Actually they have a penis.

I consider them genetic males with a full female phenotype.

I have zero issue with these individuals… being treated as women, becasue they are phenotypically (functionaly) the same as females

So still part of the binary.

@AIstolemylunch presumably you chose to have (and perhaps paid for) chromosomal testing. Most people don't do that. Most babies have their sex identified at birth based on appearance as these women will have done.

I don't know why you think that is bullshit, but that's certainly how the sex of my first DC was identified (the second had genetic testing for other reasons).

@AIstolemylunch what's an attenpt?

🔥🔥🔥

Bingo! I did wonder how long it would be before Michael Phelps was rolled out!

Michael Phelps did not have a massive advantage over his male competitors, in fact not a single one of Phelps’ world records still stands so he can’t have been that much of an outlier. However not a single woman has ever got close to one of his previous records which tells you everything about the advantage males have.

Yep. No point engaging with that individual whatsoever as there’s an agenda at play.

It has been very clear to anyone who has read your posts in the past that you post in a very hyperbolic fashion. You are all too often deleted when you do it too.

I keep pointing out that you use the term 'sex fascists' because it is a very clear example of the hyperbole that you use. You seem to have to vilify and demonise people who disagree with you and your philosophical belief. How is that a sign of an intention to have a rational discussion?

Once you start to label people as 'Sex Fascists', you cannot deny hyperbole.

I personally, if I was in charge of the IOC which I'm not, would draw the line at XX regardless of androgen insensitivity. Anything else as we've seen creates loopholes that erode the integrity and fairness of female sport.

Not sure why you edited your post but in answer to the question you deleted I recognise the IOC are unlikely at this point to be as hardline as me so as a start I would accept open and truthful conversations about the different DSDs and what advantage they confer.

Note the word 'open' because at the moment the IOC refuses to be truthful and transparent about anything and think they can use coercion, threats and media gagging to shut everyone up.