to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

They're not women, so no.

Don’t be ridiculous, men are on average far stronger than women, don’t pretend that’s news to you.

This is an argument about biology, and at what point there is an unfair/unsafe advantage.

The IOC bleating on about passports and how an athlete lived their life is utterly irrelevant and really unhelpful.

Biology matters here. Because women’s lives could actually depend on it, and I mean that in a literal sense. Running, swimming etc is a matter of fairness but when it comes to contact sports, a woman could end up seriously hurt.

No one should be talking about identity, or passports, or lifestyle. It’s an emotive tactic designed to distract from the actual facts that matter.

Is the individual XY? Did they have male puberty? Are they sensitive to testosterone?

Those are the facts that matter, and not a fucking passport.

I’m sorry that these individuals are having their personal information discussed on the world stage. I’m sure it’s not pleasant. But it’s also pretty unpleasant facing an opponent with a biological advantage who you can’t compete fairly with so unfortunately these discussions need to be had. The cloak and dagger approach isn’t helping anyone and is just leading to conversations about obscure and unlikely conditions that may not even apply.

Women’s safety matters. Without clarity this is just another way of telling us to “be kind” and shuffle over. As per usual.

👍🏻.
Or a “different” process happens perhaps, since there’s no need to attach value judgements to spontaneous biological processes. Likewise use of “corrupted” and “wrong” file.

ScienceofSport suggests sex “screening” rather than sex “testing”. Unexpected results can then be investigated further and classifications made.

By insisting on a cheek swab as soon as people register with a recognised sports body you can stop situations like this in one fell swoop.

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/1819332741105606960?s=61&t=haffcpWC9mwmf6zkaHVRIg

Carini will have been 'advised' to apologise and probably subjected to a spot of reeducation. Her funding/sponsorship was probably on the line.

Well exactly.

Yep,she wished to apologise about as much as I wish I could pay more tax.

In the UK, where testing is often (not always) done , people with XY chromosomes are sometimes assigned female. This is not a mistake , it’s a matter of clinical judgement.

This is simply not true anymore. There are numerous tests now done in neonatology if it seems like a baby may suffer from a DSD.

Sadly, historically babies tended to be named as female as that was thought to be less traumatic than acknowledging that they were male but didn't have the right/ current size of equipment. This is still often the case in developing or very conservative countries.

That website literally refers to “female (XX chromosomes) or male (XY chromosomes)”.
DSDs are mostly, perhaps always correlated to the absence or excess or difference in X chromosomes. A female is never born with a Y chromosome, if they have a Y chromosome they are genetically male, however they present.
For someone who apparently has a PhD on this, you need to go back to school.

I’m glad she apologised. Her behaviour was appalling

I have only ever seen a few cases of truly ambiguous genitalia in a 37-year career. In most cases, further inspection will lead you to the correct sex.
In those that were truly ambiguous cases, the child isn't registered and genetic tests are sent off. These used to take months to come back in the earlier days of genetic testing. Now they are relatively quick. A lot of this type of testing requires specialist facilities which aren't available all over the world and less so in developing countries. Hence a decision is made at birth of what sex to assign the child.
An empty scrotum and a micropenis or buried penis can be mistaken for labia and a clitoris.
Its entirely plausible that a male with a DSD and ambiguous genitalia could be wrongly identified as female in areas where testing is not readily available, raised as a female, and not discovered until puberty when the internal testes kick in.
Look at the Guevedoce in the Dominican Republic. It's been happening since time immemorial. It's just that some are now using this genetic anomaly to cheat at sports.

Different as death being simply a ‘different’ outcome? That is the outcome in the majority of genetic mutations. The embryo simply cannot develop. You might not even know you were pregnant.

Are you talking about Swyer Syndrome? If so, then they don't go through any sort of puberty at all.

🙄 That's not what I did. I said that Khelif was a mediocre male, keep up.

The reason that we have women's sport in the first place is that "maleness" comes with inherent physical advantages - that's why it's unfair (and downright dangerous) to allow men (even mediocre ones) to compete with women.

Women's sport should be a platform where women compete against each other, any woman competing at Olympic level has already reached an exceptional skill level - they shouldn't have that tarnished by having to compete with males.

Chromosome testing looks at the number and type of chromosomes in your cells, similar to sex testing you can have when pregnant they look under a microscope and see if you have the normal number, any extras eg trisomy like in Down's syndrome and whether your sex chromosomes (pair 23) are 2 the same i.e 2 X chromosomes XX genotype (= female developmental pathway will be expressed) or 2 different ones, a long X chromosome and a short Y chromosome XY genotype (= male developmental pathway will be expressed).

Genetic testing is used interchangeably but really means doing a much nore complex analysis of mutations, and their effects, in the genes on various chromosome i.e small parts of the DNA on individual chromosomes that can be have coding differences from the norm = a genetic mutations.

DSD Disorders of Sexual Development can arise from chromosomal abnormalities eg an extra chromosome eg XXY (still phenotypically male) or as a result of downstream genetic mutations which cause different effects eg under virilization of the secondary sex characteristics in the foetus eg XY males with 5ARD - mutation on the gene (not on the sex chromosomes, on another chromosome entirely) that produces DHT - a precursor to testostetone that is responsible for the virulization of secondary sex characteristics in the foetus i.e forming a little penis. This function is taken over by the testes and actual testosterone at puberty, in this condition, so these boy babies, who could well have been mistaken as girl babies in places where they dont do proper chromosomal or genetic testing when babies with ambiguous genitalia are born, undergo normal male puberty and develop pretty much as normal men from that point.

Distessing for the individual but should not be in normal XX female sports because they have been tbrough male puberty and have the potential strength, cardiac, muscle advantage of men. Whether they're not great boxers , naturally short and small, dont train enough or whatever and lots of women can beat them is irrelevant. They are genetic and phenotypical (eventually) males.

Remeber that what it looks like between your legs is only the end resukt of a conplex biological pathway and is only really of secondary importance (hence why they're called 'secondary sex characteristics') what determines yoyr sex is your primary sex characteristics - testes or ovaries and capabale of producing sperm or eggs. Its one or the other. There is no human on the planet, ever, no DSD condition, no identiftying as that has resulted in a human, or indeed mammal, that can produce both sperm and eggs. Sex is binary I am afriad and hence there are 2 sex categories for sports.

This was all in GCSE Biology people.

If these 2 boxers are claming to have the extremely rare DSD CAIS complete androgen insensitivity syndrome where they are XY but have a downstream mutation in testosterone receptors such that they are completely insensitive to testosterone for their entire lifecycles, then let them state that in public with medical evidence and i am sure no one would have a problem with them competing in womans sports, as they are functionally female and crucially do not go throughmale puberty. Its very unlikely though that such individuals with the medical issues that go with that condition would make it into elite sports and they would not look like normal men, like they do.

Carini is not the problem here. Her anger was entirely justified.

If you found what happened distasteful then take it up with the IOC who are culpable for a situation that could and should have been easily avoided.

Have you read the thread? Yes XY is the usual male pattern chromosome , but possessing the usual male pattern chromosome does not always make a person male.

That’s the end of women’s sports when an xx woman has to apologise to an xy man whilst playing her sport in the women’s category.

I imagine my behaviour would be pretty appalling if some bloke punched me in the face.

Why are the IOC against cheek swabs and why did they drop it ?

Drug testing is pretty undignified. You have to take enough of your clothes off so the tester can see urine coming from body to vessel

Great explanation. I would have thought that with the PP’s qualifications “she”would have known that. It always surprises me when people believe that there is some “other” force in expression of genes. Even if they are damaged by environmental agents it’s still down to those genes how we turn out.

I don't know the exact medical situation of this boxer but they do appear to be very male in presentation. I think the world of sport has to get to grips with issues of people with DSD competing because it appears to cause a great deal of grief on all sides. It could be that they just aren't able to compete with women who do not have such as condition. If it is at the point where women feel in real danger from people with such a high level of testosterone and have when through the equivalent of a male puberty then that has to be taken seriously.

It may seem harsh but people are pushed out of elite sports for all kinds of reasons, the safety of the majority of women is more important than accommodating a few individuals.

They dropped it precisely so this current shit show could happen. This is deliberate policy. The want males in female sport.

There are now studies that show that male people 5ARD do have the potential to compete fairly with male athletes and to win. Their hormone production does not impede their performance as some people in the past have tried to theorise.

You, personally, can find this debate insulting and degrading because you rely on emotional reasoning. You have been the poster to label others having rational discussions about this as 'sex fascists'. I guess you might be the expert in insulting behaviour. You have certainly excelled in hyperbole in the past.