To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

Oh @Tandora you again. I don't hate him, I hate what he was allowed to do, no amount of your hogwash will make me believe he's not male, like I said previously, my eyes know what they saw and that is a man.
As an aside it has nothing to do with race either so stop trying to make it about that.
Also what the hell is a sex diverse woman?

There is a lot of compassion for them if you bother to read the thread.

Tandora "Oh right: I come back on this thread and see that it’s GiddyMember whose posts are being deleted. One of the few posters who is trying to interrupt the tirade of hate directed against a sex diverse woman of colour, who has done nothing wrong."

In fact Tandora, if you notice that poster's posts have all been deleted. Did you wonder why?

Because they were abusive to others who disagreed with them.

Gosh ... you are now posting in support of an abusive poster. You, with all your name calling about 'sex fascists' and such... does that give you pause that you supported an abusive poster and didn't recognise their abusiveness?

They cross the line into abuse all too often.

I would expect that you are right and that they are a PBP.

My comments are based on recent posts which I found shocking. I don't have time to catch up on 578 posts.

It never ceases to amaze me how the male in these situations is always portrayed as the victim by those with an agenda, not the female who has had her rights, dignity and safety compromised.

Smells a lot like the tears of an abuser.

I would have compassion for Khelif if, upon discovering he had failed sex testing in 2022 and 2023, he had decided not to step into the ring in 2024 with a female and punch her in the head.

As it is, I reserve my sympathy for Angela Carini, and for all female athletes who have to operate in this ridiculous, unfair and dangerous environment.

@Asherrain
Maybe you need to read the rest of the posts before you start posting yourself. PPs who don't RTFT are annoying.

Khelif is a man, beating women. I don't have respect for violent men.

Do you have any compassion for Carini?

Here's the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women and Girls:

'Many of the inputs I have received for my upcoming report on violence against women and girls in sport and which i will present at #GA79 in October, stress the need to maintain single-sex spaces for safety, fairness and basic human dignity. This week at #PARIS2024 we may all witness the damaging consequences for women and girls when the principle of sex separation in sports is not respected. I will be watching the Olympic boxing matches with utmost concern. Determining an athlete’s sex can be simple, accurate, and dignified: it only requires a single cheek swab in a lifetime.'

https://x.com/UNSRVAW/status/1818268454505336977

Where are the offensive posts then?
No I don't have compassion or repect for him, he is a cheat and was given a place meant for another woman. He grabbed her breast and kept trying to touch her when she clearly did not want to be anywhere near him.
Couldn't be arsed to read the rest of your reply same as you couldn't be bothered to read the thread.

The soundbites which seem to be being parroted by the fluffy brigade include

Michael Phelps has an Ada baby age - he has Marfans syndrome which gives him long limbs and flat feet- he should be disqualified - oh yes that connective tissue disease which also leaves him open to ruptures of his aorta, dislocation, muscular skeletal problems etc. - do this people even engage. - I mean Ffs.

I’ve tried looking through the thread, Do we know what sort of DSD Khelif has? Is it that they have testicles (undescended) or swyers syndrome?

Khelif has chosen to walk into a shit storm by choosing to compete when they know it will be controversial and they likely have an unfair advantage.

Being beaten by a woman simply indicates that, on the day, the other boxer was better than them. It doesn't make it either fair or safe in general.

However the blame for this mess must lie with the IOC for going along with feelings and passports rather than science.

What is this???!!! Listen to yourselves people.

I think Khelif is horrific. He went in that ring knowing damn well he could kill his opponent. And he did it anyway. Absolute worst that the male sex has to offer.

Well your post calling her a cheat is pretty offensive. Seeing as she has applied just like every other athlete and been allowed to compete.
I don't necessarily agree with her being allowed to compete, I don't know enough about her, I haven't seen her genitals or reviewed her private medical notes.
All I do know is that at birth she was assigned as a female so presented as a female to medical professionals at birth, raised as a girl, and that the IOC allowed her to compete, so in this instance she isn't breaking any rules, and therefore isn't a cheat.

Who actually knows her exact biology?

You are claiming he has female genitalia. Do you have access to information the rest of us don't?

He did not meet IBA eligibility criteria for inclusion in female competition and was disqualified from competing after the results of an unspecified "gender test". No one actually knows what that means exactly but you feel qualified to speculate whilst anyone else who speculates but doesn't agree with you is hateful. Whatever the issue, the IBA clearly stated he had an advantage over female competitors.

The "short snippet" of video clearly shows him cupping Angela Carini's breast, it did not look accidental. Is that acceptable to you?

As you said you haven't read the full thread but maybe you should.

Semenya has a wife and has fathered two children, so I agree that his lack of breasts is probably not the most obvious piece of evidence of his maleness.

Next boxing match now on

And the blame lies with those who allowed him to compete, but he himself is not blameless, he went into that ring knowing he was bigger and stronger than Angela, knowing he could really hurt her or worse, but he still did it anyway, that to me is a cheat. You don't have to see his genitals or know his medical history to know he is male though, you have eyes!

I do know that changing sex in Algeria is illegal, so she isn't trans. If she was assigned female at birth then it stands that she presents with female genitalia.
My argument isn't whether she should be allowed to compete, that is down to the IOC, and I totally agree that people should question and challenge their decisions. My argument is that it is totally unacceptable to call someone a cheat, an abuser, a male woman beater, when she was told as a baby and a child that she was a girl, and has trained and worked hard just like any other athlete.
There are other female boxers that think she should be allowed to compete. As I mentioned before, Amy Broadhurst who beat ber in 2022. If she has such a huge advantage why isn't she winning everything? If she is THAT much of a danger.

International Boxing Association, minutes of Directors' meeting 2023:

'Mr. Marko Petric, IBA Head of Sport, presented two cases of the athletes from Algeria, Imane Khelif, and Chinese Taipei, Lin Yu-ting, who, competing at the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in India, failed to meet eligibility rules, following a test conducted by an independent laboratory.
...

IBA Secretary General and CEO explained that testing was conducted upon the request of the Technical Delegate and Medical Jury of the Championships. The results became available in seven days and the IBA Secretary General and CEO, acting on behalf of IBA, notified the athletes immediately about their disqualification, giving them twenty-one days to appeal the decision to CAS.

Mr. Yerolimpos confirmed that similar testing was conducted by a different independent laboratory with the same athletes at the previous edition of the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul, Turkey in 2022. However, the results were received only upon conclusion of the event, hence the athletes were not disqualified back then.

...
Mr. Yerolimpos confirmed that IBA has the results from two independent laboratories in two different countries at its disposal, both of which indicate that the athletes do not meet one of the eligibility criteria to continue competing at the Championships.'

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

'The disqualification was based on two tests conducted on both athletes as follows:

• Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul 2022.
• Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi 2023.

For clarification

• Lin Yu-ting did not appeal the IBA’s decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), thus rendering the decision legally binding.
• Imane Khelif initially appealed the decision to CAS but withdrew the appeal during the process, also making the IBA decision legally binding.'

She was raised a girl, she had female genitalia and assigned female at birth. She rose to the top of her sport through hard work and dedication like any other athlete.
She doesn't have the advantages of a true biological male and she still gets beaten by other women. She got beaten by Amy Broadhurst in 2022, a female boxer who SUPPORTS her being allowed to compete. Her next opponent has said 'bring it on'.

I suggest that you read the thread. All of your points have been addressed, in quite some depth, already.

But here it short answer.

She was raised a girl, she had female genitalia and assigned female at birth.

The evidence that framed the IBA statements show that this person is a male athlete. They are male. They potentially have a DSD, but they have been stated to have male physical advantage over female athletes.

She rose to the top of her sport through hard work and dedication like any other athlete.

This is irrelevant.

In fact, suffice to say that because of the male advantage that caused them to be excluded from the IBA competitions, that the female boxer who missed their chance at the Olympics because this male person took their place logically worked even harder than this male athlete. Why? Because female athletes need to work harder to get to the level that a male athlete achieves with their physical advantages. Hence, why female sports categories need to be protected.

She doesn't have the advantages of a true biological male

You do not know this. You do not know which male DSD group this male athlete belongs to. What we do know is that they have been tested and found to have a physical advantage over female athletes.

she still gets beaten by other women. She got beaten by Amy Broadhurst in 2022, a female boxer who SUPPORTS her being allowed to compete.

Mediocre male athletes will be beaten by exceptional female athletes on occasion. It does not mean that the male athlete does not have an advantage.

How is this as an example:

If someone put a motor on their bike and competed in the Tour de France, and lost, does that mean that the competitor didn't have a competitive advantage? Or was not a mediocre competitor?

So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

What you are supporting is, in effect, very dangerous for female athletes due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages.

Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.

What do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

Do you think that perhaps there is a significant issue here?

Khelif has chosen to walk into a shit storm by choosing to compete when they know it will be controversial and they likely have an unfair advantage.

Being beaten by a woman simply indicates that, on the day, the other boxer was better than them. It doesn't make it either fair or safe in general.

However the blame for this mess must lie with the IOC for going along with feelings and passports rather than science.

This. Well said.

Jesus did you actually see those 40odd seconds in the ring? Doesn't sound like you did.
Her losing against other women is irrevelant to this discussion too.

Lin has just won 1st round

How is his opponent doing?