To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

With every photo of male bodies in women's sports, the lies are exposed.

With every accusation of 'transphobia' for those wanting fair sport for women, the more that word loses the power to shame.

Most people don't give a toss if they're called 'transphobic' these days it just means having some kind of recognition of reality.

If sex class in the Olympics is all based on passports, this means any male who crossdresses can compete against women, I suppose.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition/gender-recognition-accessible#Crossdressers

'Crossdressers

We can only issue a passport if it is established the customer is using their new identity for all purposes. You, the examiner, must not issue a passport in a name or gender a customer uses for some but not all purposes.
If the customer cannot provide medical evidence, they must make a statement confirming they permanently use the preferred identity. They must also have a referee confirm their new identity and send us evidence if they have changed their name (see Names – evidence to change a name).'

How can our discussion be transphobic if Khelif is not trans?
Is Angela Carini trans?

I thought that was a spelling mistake.

All good questions. If the IOC had reasonable testing e.g. cheek swabs then all of this could be avoided.

The power to prevent any commentary on this boxer's sex and physique is entirely in their hands. They are to blame for any distress, not women speaking up against Violence against women and girls and specifically, in this case, specific horrific violence against an obviously female boxer that led her to abandon a match as she was fearful for her life.

Yes they need to fix the process

Here you go. Some reading:

”The argument that Khelif's advantage does not matter because it is 'small' and 'like Michael Phelps's advantages' is false.”

“I mean, 'false' as in 'refuted', 'demonstrated to be wrong’.”

”Here you go - see particularly pp. 8-15:”

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1819323178973331569

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

The IOC did have that test. They stopped using it. Spoiler alert - they didn't do that for the benefit of women. And now here we are, with elite female athletes being forced to accept being beaten, physically and metaphorically, by males.

The IOC still spouting this ‘gender is a minefield’ crap. No, it’s not. It’s very simple.

Sex based categories for sport, with sex testing to determine whether athletes are eligible.

What you feel, how you ‘present’ or what ‘gender’ you choose to ‘live as’ should have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Why can’t they say it? Why? 🤔

No he doesn't. And if he did, there's no way he'd be well enough to box.

Catching up on this thread but in case it hasn't been posted yet, here is a link shared by WandsOut on the #IstandwithAngelaCarini thread:

https://x.com/nicholelizaq/status/1819035576559120743?s=46

This very clearly shows that this male is not only happy to punch a woman in the face, but sexually assaulted her too! He touched her breast in full view of everyone on a televised world stage - just to add insult to literal injury😡

Absolute bastard! I really hope he's charged with assault!

He's an all round abusive twat and needs to be disqualified yesterda.

Khelif is the absolutely embodiment of male entitledment

You may find IrisChild's poem insightful on the politics of decision-making (although it's a different area).

what if I am in your space?
would you say it to my face?

what if all the legal courts
say I can be in your sports?

what if laws are made for me
stopping you from stopping me?

what if a panel all agreed
gave me the paper I said I need?

I do not like to make a fuss
but you do not belong with us
and when my sisters tell you no
the thing for you to do is go
…
say it!
say it!
make it true
say that I am just like you

I do not want to tell a lie
and say that you're the same as I
there's nothing that a man can do
to make him me when he is you
I will not say it just for you
I will not say what isn't true
I will not say it from a jail

I will always know you're…

I think it highly unlikely that they didn't know. From Khelif's Instagram.

I'm also wondering how common it is for Muslim women to have this kind of physical contact with men they are not related to. Khelif is taller than both coaches.

This.

Khelif is not without agency in all of this.

It's no more of a system for what is meant to be the pinnacle of international sport than a note from your mum.

Well put. I’m going to use that simile myself. It’s dead right!

What in the hell is a "sex diverse woman" when it's at home?

Thinking someone is not competing fairly - for whatever reason - is not the same as hating them. Disagreeing with IOC rules and thinking they are wrong in this instance isn't the same as hate.

I can't speak for everyone else but I think this is unfair, and I feel sorry for both involved parties. No hate.

It's a really strange point of view isn't it . Can't even say it's like a man as every man I know thinks this is as ludicrous as I do.

Thank you @MNHQ for cleaning up this thread 🙏

Tandora "Oh right: I come back on this thread and see that it’s GiddyMember whose posts are being deleted. One of the few posters who is trying to interrupt the tirade of hate directed against a sex diverse woman of colour, who has done nothing wrong."

"well done mumsnet"

I believe you will find that the reason that poster's posts have been deleted, as you yourself have experienced, is because they don't follow the published talk guidelines that we all accept when we post on MN. I read them, many of those deleted were personal attacks.

And I see that you are back with your hyperbole again. "One of the few posters who is trying to interrupt the tirade of hate directed against a sex diverse woman of colour, who has done nothing wrong."

No one is hating this male athlete. It is hyperbolic and emotionally manipulative to categorise discussion that you don't agree with in this way. How about instead, you and other posters post links to evidence so we can all read it and be similarly convinced?

Surely that is the very best way to convince others.

I haven't read the full thread as it's too long but some of the most recent posts are so offensive. There is no compassion or respect for Khelif whatsoever.
She was raised a girl, she had female genitalia and assigned female at birth. She rose to the top of her sport through hard work and dedication like any other athlete.
She doesn't have the advantages of a true biological male and she still gets beaten by other women. She got beaten by Amy Broadhurst in 2022, a female boxer who SUPPORTS her being allowed to compete. Her next opponent has said 'bring it on'.

Whether you agree with the IOC or not, have some respect for her as an athlete and some bloody compassion for a situation that is far from straightforward. The media has turned this into a shit storm and it is very unfair. If anyone has an issue it would be with the IOC, not Khelif.

Who actually knows her exact biology?! Noone except people with access to her private medical records. You all act like your experts but you haven't got a clue!
And now someone is actually accusing her of sexual assault and calling her a predator based on one short snippet of video. FFS. Noone else has lodged a complaint about sexual assault but now she is being labelled a predator just to add to the furore. Pure bullying by the media and social media. People should be ashamed.

Tandora "Oh right: I come back on this thread and see that it’s GiddyMember whose posts are being deleted. One of the few posters who is trying to interrupt the tirade of hate directed against a sex diverse woman of colour, who has done nothing wrong."

All of GiddyMember's posts have been deleted, suggesting that they are possibly a PBP.