To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

That's not an answer to the question you were asked.

Thank you, brilliantly put. The TRAs hate real women and they want to erase them.

It would be a very negligent coach and parent who did not take their daughter to get tests done if no sign of menstruation appeared.

And apart from the non-virilising DSDs, there would also be signs of that testosterone driven puberty. If you have a daughter and she is showing signs of virilisation - then that is a huge concern. Either she is doping or there is a medical condition at play.

So, no. I don't buy that today the people who are children training at this level and displaying no sign of menstruation at all, would not be checked out by mid teens.

Yes, the IOC has some heavy lifting in this because of their poor interpretation of the rules and lack of care for all the athletes involved , but don’t forget that the sports bodies of these athletes home countries will have known about their DSD for probably a lot longer than even the boxing authorities who did the original testing.

Athletes have very stringent training and medical supervision, even in poorer countries, the fact that these athletes don’t have the visible physical characteristics of a woman eg no breasts, no menstruation, in addition to a very male stature and physique ,should have, and let’s face it would have raised concerns which could have been ( and probably were) confirmed by a very simple and cheap series of tests.

The only reasonable conclusion is that the decision was made to use these athletes to gain medals by cheating, which in itself is a poor decision, what makes it worse is choosing to cheat knowing that there was a possibility of inflicting permanent damage, brain injury or even death on their female opponents..

I don't know about boxing but if mental gymnastics was an Olympic sport we'd certainly have some gold medal winners on this thread.

Men do not belong in women's sports.

Or indeed cause you to grow a penis. As far as I know.

You would think this was common knowledge by now, wouldn't you?

Why do you defend Khelif so strongly and claim he's not cheating and clearly do not give a f* about his opponent. Your views come across as deeply misogynistic. Almost like a man.

@BeBraveLittlePenguin I knew there was a reason I didn't go to the gym 😂😂

Khelif clearly states that the coach approached them because of the 'physical qualities' they had. They must have known.

There is a very telling picture of Semanya, which he actually published in his autobiography, of him standing on a beach, aged fifteen. Topless. Given that Semanya was brought up in a rural and conservative society I don’t imagine that many, if any, of his 15 year old contemporary female friends would do the same. Not the ones who had breasts that is, which in the photo it is clear that 15 year old Semanya doesn’t.

Can someone point me to concrete evidence Kehlif is DSD ?

Surely the fundamental question is not whether she thinks she is woman, or was raised as a woman, or has female on her passport (the IOC's definition) but whether she shares the physical advantages associated with having a male body and for which women's sport was started. It IS complicated, but surely there has to be an internationally recognised and AGREED standard for this. While I don't blame the fighter, I do blame the IOC for allowing this to happen.

Equally no publisher would print an image of a topless 15 year old girl.

There is a video of Greiner, the basket baller, who is throwing hoops around a pool with family as an adult. Without a shirt.

Now, of course, it could be said that these are very open female people who have no shyness about their body. I mean, it could be said.

Yep!

funny that.

“I feel so sorry for transphobes. It’s the last ‘safe’ way to express bigotry and hatred, and it’s slowly but surely becoming less and less acceptable. I’m sure you’ll all find something else to put your energy into hating though. Sad way to live imo”

Way to tell everyone that you have no actual contribution to the topic! Well done!

Everyone discussing whether female sports should accommodate any male person to compete in the category is just a bigot! Understood. Thanks for plopping by again.

Where is the hatred? If you find it, report it. Mumsnet don't tolerate bigotry and hatred.

How is this particular issue transphobic? There is no transperson involved so what are you on about?

100% this.

I'm appalled by some women's eagerness to slash and burn on behalf of the male sex.

There are three people in the ring, two have XY chromosomes. In this instance, I'm confident that most people could guess which two.
Does this matter? Looking at the musculature, gait and stance of the more powerful boxer, they are indistinguishable from those of a man.
It's not the fault of the Algerian that she has DSD, but it is the fault of the IOC that women are being put at risk.
If a woman suffers a serious skull or brain injury fighting someone with XY chromosomes, who pays for the medical care, loss of earnings etc?

You would think this was common knowledge by now, wouldn't you?

With the restrictions that IPSO implements, it's understandable that it would be common knowledge if media could explain the matter properly but they can't.

Although, yes, it also involves people reflecting on their own observations and scrutinising the opinions they hold as to the meaning of those observations. Eg, by and large, most men are much stronger than most women. Testosterone is a remarkable drug for muscle development etc. You might through illness or injury lose one or more secondary sexual characteristics but you remain the sex you always were. Etc.

OK MN, I’ve got this one.

@Pharticle

It is not transphobic to discuss a male bodied athlete who is using his male bodied advantage to cheat. Especially when in the course of cheating he puts another athlete at risk of serious harm

It is not transphobic to say that male bodied persons have no place in legally designated single sex places for women.

It is not transphobic to support women’s legal rights.

It is not transphobic to understand and state that sex is immutable, based on genetic markers laid down at conception, cannot be changed and that the human race is a binary species.

Who is releasing confidential medical information about these kids to scouts?
Is it the hospitals? Doctors? Their parents? Who is handing these youngsters over for consumption? That's a massive scandal in and of itself. Are these kids being abused? I don't find it much of a stretch if they're mainly from economically deprived area.

I actually question if Khelif may be a sort of hostage. "Remember all that money we have spent training you up, look at all our investment in you, you HAD BETTER WIN or else"