To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

What you can be taken for at birth, and what you clearly are once you reach puberty, are not the same thing - 'balls at 12' as it's known in some areas where this type of DSD is more common. This athlete and all around this athlete will not be under any illusions as to what the situation is, and the athlete didn't appeal previously being banned for not meeting the criteria for the female category. This is not someone who had no idea until now.

I think that you are perpetuating misinformation here. Likely due to the ambiguity caused by language being used, just as you point out. That male people who have medical conditions, but are male people because they have a body that has been formed around the production of small gametes, regardless of whether those gametes are ever produced, are being referred to as 'female'. Those male people have testes, visibly outside the body or not. They do not have ovaries.

That is your choice. But I see from your first sentence you are querying whether people would do that. That is a personal choice. One for every one to make.

However, what language you or I use face to face with these male people, while important for collective harm reasons when it is leveraged to change policy, does not change the science.

People with differences of sex development, as you might know, are about 0.018% of the population.

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/the-true-definition-of-intersex

Even amongst these DSDs, there is one even rarer group of male people that may not go through a virilised, testosterone driven puberty. The rest of the male people with DSDs do go through some degree of male puberty.

You have made the statement :

"Women with DSD are part of the natural range of women and so should be able to compete against other women, because they're women too."

Do you mean, female people with DSDs (that is those female people with a body formed around producing large gametes, regardless of whether those gametes are produced. Which means they have ovaries not testes)? Or do you mean male people with DSDs that have gone through male puberty in any degree?

Because that testosterone that I think you are talking about, is something that is an issue with MALE athletes. No female athlete ever has to suppress their testosterone to compete fairly with other female people. Because those female athletes produce within the acceptable 'female range' of testosterone.

I have attached a chart that is useful. But yesterday, a testosterone researcher published a twitter thread about this. I am happy to post her tweet here so you can read it if you don't have twitter.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759

I will also post separately some figures for you to consider too.

Language is vital here for clarity.

"This is not a new phenomenon, these women will've been acing in women's sport for decades/centuries."

Not in the Olympics while they were testing for the sex of female people to enter the events. That stopped in the late 90s to allow these male people to compete unfairly in the female category.

Besides which.... since when was an injustice acceptable because it was done that way for decades/centuries?

Wow, GoodieMcTwoshoes, Khelif 'looks female enough'. I disagree he/she (I have no intention to offend) looks male to me.

Exactly. I didn't watch it, seeing the photos was enough. Whatever the sex/gender issues, that wasn't an equal fight.

This might help with my previous post:

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

It should be noted that males above 50 years old may have testosterone levels starting around 5 mol/L

but by the time they get to Olympic standard, won’t they know that their DSD is where at least some of their “advantage” is coming from? Shouldn’t they be honest to themselves (and the world) and admit that they don’t want to compete because they are winning due to this unsought but nevertheless totally unfair (and dangerous) advantage?

So she has a disorder and she and the medical system behind the games know about it. And? She still wants to compete of course and will do things she needs to do to try and ensure that she can. She will be allowed to compete in some games and not others maybe, and the rules will change over time. As it is, she hasn't done anything 'wrong' as far as we know.

No, you’re right. It doesn’t necessarily make them female. But the “assigning” of the gender is real. The Reimer case was part of a psychological doctrine of “making” a child female. That was and is the very definition of gender “assignment”. I was just arguing that such assignments certainly do exist.

According to today’s Times, JK Rowling sent this message to Kirsty Burrows, head of the International Olympic Committee’s safe sport unit.

“A young female boxer has just had everything she’s worked and trained for snatched away because you allowed a male to get in the ring with her. You’re a disgrace, your ‘safeguarding’ is a joke and #Paris 24 will be for ever tarnished by the brutal injustice done to Carini.”

👏👏👏 JKR!!

Caster Semenya does not have CAIS, Caster Semenya has 5ARD. That is documented fact. 'Balls at 12'.

Agree. The outcome of this is what? Do all the next sportswomen decline a fight?

Do they train for years to not have a fair process in place by the IOC and have no category

It can’t be the outcome so the IOC have messed up and will need to respond

Micheal Phelps had a genetic advantage over his competitors. Noones asking him if he should have been honest with himself and shouldn’t compete with an unfair advantage.

No Caster Semenya doesn't have Complete Androgen Insenstivity Syndrome. Semenya has 46XY 5-alpha reductase deficiency, which gives significant sporting advantages over people with XX chromosomes. See e.g. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67367157

This is why the term 'intersex' is no longer used by medical professionals in the UK. It encourages ignorance and allows people to spread rumours about people being 'a bit of both'. The reality is that people with DSDs are nearly always very clearly male or female.

No human has ever been born with working male and female genitalia.

If a man has 46 XY DSD then he will typically have a smaller than average penis and undescended testicles. But those testicles will produce testosterone at puberty and he will develop a male body. Some men with this DSD choose to have an operation to descend their testicles, because this of course makes it easier to father children.

As I mentioned in a previous post Erik Schinegger is a famous example of a man with the DSD who gave his gold medal back to the woman who should have won it, had an operation to descend his testicles and became a father.

A small penis is NOT a vagina!

The incredibly rare instances of men having uterine tissue etc are usually due to having absorbed some tissue from an unborn female twin.

Helleofabore, I completely agree with your argument and your point about injustice being acceptable because "time".
I seriously doubt that anyone on this forum would defend slavery because we did it for ages. Also blood sports, burning witches and apartheid.

I think they might well make the rules stricter, at least in things like boxing and weight lifting etc. Some of the organisations already have.

How can anyone prioritise a male's 'right to compete' over women's safety?

Absolutely boggles me.

A male person is one who has a body formed around the production of small gametes, regardless of whether that body has produced any small gametes or not. ie. A person with testes.

The uterus should not be a defining feature.

And for sport, the classification of whether you are female or male, may at this stage with some sporting bodies allow inclusion of those male people with DSDs including testes or streak testes, to compete if their body does not process the testosterone that is produced. This may change over time, but for now they have been said to not have physical advantage over female athletes.

Yes, life may be very difficult for a male with micropenis. That doesn't mean that he gets to compete in women's sports.

Didn't you read the statement by IBA?

www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

That type of semantics is how we get here IMO. 'She' doesn't have a medical disorder, she has male physiological advantage due to being male.

The rules changed from a chromosome test.- fair and logical and obvious - to 'whatever it says in your passport' - absolute farce as it says whatever sex you choose. The IOC aren't neutral, they're not working from a basis of unbiased science, they're prioritising male wants over female fairness and safety. That athlete is allowed to compete under batshit misogynist rules and women are allowed to be pissed off about it.

Michael Phelps and Adam Peaty have both got normal anatomy for their sex. Big feet and hyper mobile joints can occur in any member of the general population.

There's an excellent discussion in the Science of Sport podcast today.

castbox.fm/va/4741692

Ok. I mean, women with CAIS will have quite an advantage too, I'dve thought. They kept quiet about the details with Castor for a long time, as they have with Khalief etc. I think that's fair to respect these women's privacy.

Women with DSDs (at least CAIS) are almost always straight. They want to find a husband and especially if they come from less Westernised cultures, having the whole world know their condition could ruin what chance they have of living a normal life when it comes to finding a long term relationship etc.

I have been asking for evidence that this male athlete has a uterus to be posted since someone posted this late last night. There seems to be no evidence or even disclosure by this athlete about this at all.

It seems to be being spread by those who wish to use emotional manipulation rather than sticking to the science to convince others.

I suspect it came from someone who gave a cursory glance of male DSDs and picked the one they thought might stop discussion around the topic.