To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

Of course they know where their advantage is coming from and could choose to stop competing.

Those suggesting the scrutiny of Khelif's performance is humiliating are missing the point that they (and other athletes with DSDs) have chosen to do this on a world stage in full cognisence of the facts (just as Laurel Hubbard did). They must have known the scrutiny would happen but presumably are prepared to brazen it out. The women who have to compete against them are humiliated too and are having to consider withdrawing for reasons of safety. How is that acceptable?

Virtually anyone competing in a sport is going to try and get any advantage they can. That's not abnormally evil, it's why tactics with performance altering drugs exist, like taking steroids but stopping them a while before the competition so the sportsperson passes a drugs test. These women aren't even doing anything that's banned to improve their performance.

Why don't we just let all XY individuals compete as women then?

I think he/she is exploiting her position to beat natural women and I have no sympathy at all. If this athlete had any sense of decency, honor or fairness, he/she would not exploit his/her very significant physical advantages. I think that the female boxers should sue. When a woman is killed in the ring, no one will care because Khelif will win another medal.
Quite frankly, the misogyny coming from trans activists is disgusting and this is another example of pushing natural women away because they are just women and don't count. It is the ultimate dismissal of women because only a man can be a real woman.

Well they have the same advantage as any taller than average XX woman who doesn't have periods. I don't think an advantage that can also occur in an XX woman should lead to a restriction - do you?

They don't have any testosterone based advantage because their bodies can't process testosterone. So, no larger chest cavity, no stronger punch or larger muscle growth or the various other things that a male puberty confers.

Caster went to court to be allowed to have full benefit of their natural level of testosterone (as the IOC only allowed under a certain T level to compete), so it was Caster who put their actual condition into the public domain.

Sure.

But if this male athlete has gone through puberty, which we can accept from the IBA statement, it should not matter what body part they have or have not.

Stick to the science. Does that person have a male pubertal advantage? Yes or no?

Then this constant discussion of irrelevant body parts (the testes is the key as it produces that pubertal advantage ability) is then no longer needed.

I don't think it's the same as Lauren Hubbard. These women probably started to be competitive in sport long before they knew that there was a reason they were better at it than other girls. They must've worked hard like anyone trying to go pro does- it becomes their life from a fairly young age.

'She' has XY chromosomes ... that makes 'her' a man. It doesn't matter if she / he was raised as a girl. He went through male puberty and you don't have to be a doctor to figure that out you can see that by looking at his height, he's musculature, his nose, his brow ridge / even the way he stands and walks is male. I'm not saying that any of this is his fault but clearly he shouldn't be in boxing ring with a woman. That's out of order and would be unfair in any sport but in a combat sport it's ludicrous, he could have killed her easily.

So much exchange of information on this thread.

Yet, the mainstream media could have been educating people on these and related topics for years. But, of course, as with the current IOC media rules and the IPSO rules in the UK, that has proved very difficult.

So, here we are with rumours, half-truths and people exchanging opinions and links. Our media have let down the general public.

www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/

With the advantage of sensitivity to testosterone, and the reduced capacity for injury (anatomical reasons), do you think that they needed to train as hard, harder, or plausibly less hard than women athletes?

Being XY doesn't automatically make someone a man on its own. The person can have female-presenting genitalia and that is another factor that goes into determining their sex, too.

Yes to being sympathetic, kind etc BUT no one has a 'right' to be an Olympic competitor.
So if Khelif, Banda, (Semenye previously) and all the others past and present can't get into a team that is correct for their sex (gender is irrelevant) then they simply join the vast majority of humanity who also can't get into the Olympics.
It is sad for people trying to get out of abject poverty through sport, and I certainly have more sympathy for athletes from very poor countries than I would for example for a white British middle class male entering the female category. Just as I have more sympathy for a poor person committing a financial crime than for a wealthy person doing so.
But the sympathy is irrelevant to what's right, what's fair and what makes scientific sense. And in the case of sport, what's right is for females to compete against females, and males to compete against males. There are 2 sexes. There are two categories.

They have been stated by the IBA to have failed the eligibility test (which requires a XX chromosome) AND to have been found to have physical advantage over female athletes.

This has been published by the IBA.

It is absolutely irrelevant whether these two athletes are deliberately taking testosterone or it is natural.

They are male with pubertal advantage that is ONLY found in male people. It is irrelevant whether these two male athletes have control over this or not.

And that's very sad. Just like it's very sad if you're a talented and passionate ballet dancer but grow to be 6ft tall, or you're a competitive skier but have a nasty fall and break your back. People's sporting dreams are ended in sad circumstances every day.

Yesterday, Angela Carini's Olympic dream was ended in the most humiliating way imaginable, and she had the good sense to stop before she was irreversibly injured.

At some point though they knew they had a medical reason they didn't belong in women's sport. As lots of promising young athletes do, injury medical conditions etc do end sports careers. I'd have a great deal of sympathy for a young person that happened to.

What I have no sympathy for though, is some who knows they are cheating, and carries on.

They'd still have to train hard and devote a lot of time to it to compete professionally.

I really do feel for khelif having their medical history pulled apart and speculated about like they are a Victorian curiosity. However, this is all on the IOC.

Correct! Being XY doesn't automatically make someone a 'man' for sports consideration. Being XY and processing testosterone produced by the bodies testes is the important consideration.

These two athletes were tested and found exactly this. That is why the IBA excluded them.

Again, it is irrelevant what genitals they have or whether they were brought up as the opposite sex. These athletes know they are male. Officially they have known this from 2023.

It's not the same as Laurel Hubbard, because Laurel is trans.

But these athletes are still male. They are well aware that they are 'better at it' than girls, because they are male. They know they are male.

I don't understand why we have to be so kind to the males with disorders of sexual development but nobody gives a fuck about the women they're fighting.

And on them and their team. Issue a statement at least, better yet undergo testing. If I were them I'd be doing everything possible to shut everyone up so I could focus on my competition.

I’m not sure people know the details anyway, it could be avoided if the IOC hadn’t messed up

They're not cheating under the rules of this current competition. And they're still women.

"She is not a male athlete… she only has XY chromosomes and testosterone"

wow, aren’t we living in societal collapse.

The female Algerian boxer who didn't get to the Olympics because the funding was used up presumably also trained hard and devoted a lot of time to it.

Probably harder since she didn't have the testosterone and build advantages that testosterone-sensitive, sry positive, XY anatomy confers.

I agree. Really horrid for them being pulled into the whole Trans debate when they are not Trans but Intersex. Must be very hard to learn in puberty that you are not what was assigned to you at birth.

I think the only way forward will be to test and ban XY ‘females’ from competing against women. Hopefully this test can be added to the babies heelprick tests at some stage too.