To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

This

I find the constant disregard for female boxer's safety by posters to be sadly unsurprising but still, it is remarkable to see a post such as this.

Male people, who have gone through male puberty have, in general, more than 160% the punch power of a typical female. These athletes that the IOC have allowed to compete, have at least that much more power behind their punch. We know this because the IBA stated they were not female people and that they had been assessed to have advantage over female athletes. ie. these are male athletes.

There are many physical advantages that these male athletes have. I am happy to list more if you need. Bone density which is also a significant factor between the sexes feeds into this too.

The significance of this is that the female athletes that they are punching have safety needs that are rather different than male people needs.

Female people have a greater risk of brain damage due to our more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is documented, particularly by the Swansea University who did studies around female athletes playing rugby.

So... that 160+% power difference is significant to the safety of female athletes.

Additionally, our bones are less dense. So not only are female people more prone to brain damage from a punch, but we are more prone to have our bones broken by that punch. Especially facial bones.

So it is indefensible that the IOC has put female boxers into this position where they are more likely to suffer life limiting, even life shortening, damage caused by the IOC's policy to prioritise inclusion above fairness. Something that Budgett announced after the Tokyo Olympics where they devolved the IOC's responsibility (maybe even accountability) to the international federations for each sport.

You're debating semantics here; in most cases, sex is observed, but in this case it was observed incorrectly because of the DSD and "assigned" (again, incorrectly) as female. Just because the person was subsequently raised in a "feminine way" doesn't make them female (look at the tragic consequences of the Reimer twins for proof of that).

naunet you have nailed it here and I am only half way through this mess of a thread.

They aren't women's bodies when they aren't women and of course the bodies of elite athletes are "policed" that's how doping is detected. It's been going on for decades.

If athletes don't like the "policing" they don't have to compete. If you participate in sport at a high level it's going to come with scrutiny as many roles in the public eye do. Participation in sport is a choice, if you don't like everything that comes with it then stop competing.

Yea that seals the deal who cares about 51% of the population being able to compete fairly in sport it's all about the odd individual like Laurel Hubble ffs

and the British competitors were incredibly gracious in their defeat. It was like watching two separate races

Caster Semenya has NOT “lived their whole lives thinking they are female.”

Most of the social media posts I’ve seen from or about him (regarding his earlier life) show he’s lived a very ‘male-typical’ (for want of a better description) lifestyle for some time.

@GiddyMember
You are actually serious quoting me stating 'Again, white woman's tears weaponised to inflict harm' because I said I felt sad for Angela carini crying in the ring because all her hard work and training and Olympic dream was taken from her. This has nothing to do with skin colour.
In embarrassed for you

Don't forget the Japanese woman sent home for smoking, the British female sent home over a horse, but the male rapist stays.

Then we get the IOC rulebook about diversity, fairness and lovely fluffy pink bunnies. Including this time full on censorship of normal words.

Isn't unwanted groping an offence in France? So Carini could do a Hermosa on Khelif? That would be amusing. I cannot imagine any woman in any sport would consider it acceptable to gratuitously grope her defeated opponent.

There's some absolute bollocks being talked on this thread. I have a child with a rare chromosome disorder which we didn't discover until he was 12. It was a huge shock and I have sympathy for any family navigating this but it doesn't alter the fact that if an individual has a Y chromosome they shouldnt be competing in female categories.

Everyone has a choice about how they spend their time and I have to question the motives of anyone with a Y chromosome knowingly competing against women particularly when your chosen activity involves punching your opponent in the head.

@GiddyMember
I think we're also forgetting that every woman targetted by this obsession with biology has been a woman of colour.

Let's not forget Roviel Detenamo, a woman of colour from a deprived background, who lost her place at the Olympics to a white, rich woman with a dick.

I'm sure that I read somewhere that DSDs are more common and less likely to be diagnosed in African countries so that might explain the link to 'woman of colour'. If my DD hadn't started her periods by 16 I would be seeking an medical opinion, something that Algerian parents of a girl might not do due to resources, tradition or stigma.

I feel that this interview with Caster Semenya highlights that Caster doesn't think that he is a woman and actually shows his contempt for women, a similar vibe came through in the Imane Khelif after fight interview.

Shocking that anyone still thinks Caster Semenya 'lived his whole life thinking he was female'. In interviews it's clear that even as a child he played with other boys. He refers to women as them (not us). His voice broke when he hit puberty and if he was still in any doubt aged 18, it was confirmed by tests that he was a man with 46 XY DSD. Here's an interview where he talks about women as 'them'.

Read Glamour magazine’s latest Instagram post.

unbloodybelievable

Funny how this person has chosen to fight against women though, knowing they have a genetic advantage, rather than against men. So clearly men having advantages over them is not ok, but the other way round is fine?

Sorry for cross post @indignantpigmy

Thank you @Midgegreenstreet

XX or XY? Male when it suits, Female when it's necessary.

Image of the female boxer.

Edited as I had a picture to post, but it's not showing. Sorrrryyy!

This!

I know it has been said on this thread by different posters in different ways, and fuck knows, we have been making posts like this ever since we knew about these male athletes. But every time someone centres a male athlete and uses emotional reasoning and philosophical theory to leverage their inclusion into the female sports category, that person is supporting misogyny. Whether that is their intention or not.

Because for every male athlete that enters the female sport event, there is likely to have been a female athlete harmed for reasons from missing their own opportunity through to the worst, physically harmed.

Whether that male athlete, one with a body formed around the production of small gametes, regardless of the state of that gamete production, has a medical condition or has a gender identity that means they wish to be included. The impact is the same.

That is misogyny. Right there.

By all means, extend those male athletes sympathy, empathy, whatever. But they should never have been included in the female sports category.

And once those male athletes realise that they have an advantage, or even that they are male, the onus is on them to either choose to respect the needs of female athletes or to ignore those needs. It is their choice to compete in a protected category that they were excluded from by the IBA but due to regulations allowed to compete at the Olympics.

They made it knowing that they are competent male adults.

They chose not to respect the needs of female athletes.

Khelif failed a recognised gender test (they call it, although 'sex' is of course the accurate term here) by his own sport's ruling body, and accepted the result.
While I don't condone hate speech or venom towards anyone, he is not an innocent who has accidentally found himself competing in the wrong category.

Absolutely right! Caster’s actual sex would have become very apparent at puberty; CS wore the boys uniform at school; there is a photo of CS as a teen wearing men’s swimming trunks and looking very obviously male; CS talks about women as ‘other’ - ie a different group to CS.

Coaches look out for people like CS, knowing full well what their sex is and how initial missexing would have led to a female marker on ID documents.

"Gaggle" of friends eh?

Gaggle.

Don't tell me - we're all "hysterical", right? Are we also "hysterical"? "Frothing", perchance?

Do we need to "calm down"? "Dear"?

Would you go routinely go round calling women born with disorders of sexual development, presumably with vaginas, men?

These issues are going to happen fairly often because some women with DSD will find that they're talented (compared to the average woman without their particular DSD) at sport.

Women with DSD are part of the natural range of women and so should be able to compete against other women, because they're women too.

Maybe with some restrictions that they have to have treatment for their conditions to lower any excessively raised testosterone for their sex category etc.

This is not a new phenomenon, these women will've been acing in women's sport for decades/centuries.