To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

People are being incredibly cruel about the "male" competitor. This isn't a man who has decided to pretend to be a woman so he can win easier or hit women. This is a woman, assigned female at birth, raised as a girl, with all the disadvantages of being a woman in our society. Who has been found to have a genetic condition that corrupts her entire identity. People deliberately calling her "him" and a "man" and comparing her to domestic abusers are quite frankly, vile, uneducated bullies.

Not really. This is a person who, although they appear to have gone through childhood as a girl, is now perfectly well aware, as an adult, that they are biologically male, and retain many of the male strength advantages. And who has decided, nevertheless, to persist in unfair competition against natal females.

Different regulations concluded different things. Not crazy but clearly born of different attitudes.
There are only cis women competing in women’s events at the Olympics although there is a transgender man running for the USA in the women’s athletics.
It Complicated!!

It just has to be fair.

The Paralympics have numerous categories so maybe it is time for some open ones in the main Olympic Games?

This is completely incorrect if she has 5aRD - which is what Castor Semenya has.
Ambigious external genitalia led to incorrect observation of sex at birth. This DSD means functional internal testes that lead to male puberty and thus to male performance advantage.
5aRD also affects male pattern baldness, so individuals will have less body hair than men without the disorder. It has been shown to have no effect on strength, power, muscle development, size or lung capacity -
They do not have female genitalia-rather incorrectly formed external male genitals. I feel for anyone with this condition- which may not be picked up in until puberty or later, but once known, they should not be competing against women.

@GiddyMember

"The fight lasted 46 seconds, no one was killed, Imane's competitor was a shit boxer and lost as a result"

"I only slapped her the once, no one was killed, she's a shit girlfriend and got slapped as a result"

Most people believe in reality

I haven't been able to keep up with all the threads, sorry, but I'm wondering if instead of all the speculation ( to be clear he looks like a bloke to me) it would be sensible to just test this Algerian boxer officially, to check their biological sex?

The IOC rules are whatever the IOC want them to be.

There was absolutely nothing to stop the IOC making a rule that says only biological females are allowed to compete in women's categories and enforcing it.

Failing to do so in a sport such as boxing doesn't just undermine the integrity of women's sports, it's grossly negligent.

They can’t possibly have been “ lived their whole lives thinking they are female.

As soon as they went through male puberty instead of female puberty they would have been well aware.

You don’t have to be a doctor or scientist to know the difference .

Lots of people can’t be elite athletes because of their bodies, I don’t feel sorry for all of them.

Men with 46 XY DSD do not have 'female genitalia'. Their DSD means they are born with smaller than average male genitalia and undescended testicles because they were less sensitive to testosterone in the womb. But at puberty, testosterone (from their testicles) kicks in and they become far more masculine - for example their voice breaks and they become more hairy. This is why in certain African countries where these DSDs are quite common, there was a widespread belief that girls can turn into boys aged around 12.

In the past men with this DSD would have been disqualified from the Olympics. A famous example is Erik Schinneger (formerly Erica). Once he realised he was male he gave his gold medal back to the woman who should have won it. He then had an operation to descend his testicles and went on to become a father (he's now a grandfather).

It's not just about having 'more testosterone' than women as if often coyly quoted. It's about having testicles that produce testosterone and cause male puberty which gives you a male body and all the male physical advantages that brings. Caster Semenya, for example has 140 times the testosterone than a woman would have, because Caster has testicles.

Testicles are NOT female genitalia.

Since when has the IOC been sensible on this issue?

Not in Tokyo and not in Rio, that's for sure.

And obviously, any other woman if it seemed necessary Or all women, to keep from 'othering' the ones who's sex is in doubt. I mean, otherwise any man could claim a medical condition and compete against women.

For those all confused about sex and chromosomes and the rest of it, can I suggest a really simple test?

Look at who the IOC goes to enormous trouble for and enables, forces the media to lie for, and protects to the hilt, child rapists included. And then look at who gets sent home for smoking, and gets to be smashed in the face and left crying in 46 seconds despite being a world class boxer. Look at who gets sent into a ring and has to hand over their match and career in fear of serious injury because the IOC don't care what happens to them.

The IOC has absolutely no difficulty with a binary, sex based standard of treatment and knowing precisely who gets what.

Yes agreed, I just wondered if I'd missed it being mooted, or even if it was just deemed too sensible a suggestion 😂

A transgender man is a woman. If she has taken testosterone then she would be banned for doping.

It can easily be made fair by not allowing men to compete against women. It really isn't that complicated.

Anyone can already compete in an Open category, that is why it is called Open. Women tend not to enter open categories because they are at a biological disadvantage and would have no chance of winning against the men. Women's categories are for women only.

I think most posters know this individual isn't trans and their situation is complex.

It's perfectly possible to sympathise to a degree - because let's be honest this person has absolutely known what advantage their unusual biology gives them for some time now and that point my sympathy wanes if they choose to carry on regardless - whilst acknowledging this creates a massively unfair playing field to compete against a biological woman.

While this is allowed to continue I'll reserve my concern for women who are loosing out

If a simple cheek swab can accurately determine male from female, why not just test every female competitor in every sport, eh? IOC? What would be the problem with that?

This isn’t a new issue, the 800m had allowed intersex individuals to compete as part of a trial. Unfortunately for the other athletes (as their careers are short) the trial continued for the majority of their careers. Which meant they didn’t get the places, medals, funding etc they would have done had they been born 5 years earlier.

The problem with that is that someone like Laurel Hubbard would never again be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Oh nooo! Poor Laurel

I don’t understand why they stopped it?

This has been a bit of a learning curve for me and this case lead me to find out more about this boxers condition. I do sympathise with her and particularly as she grew up as a female in a conservative country ect. I don’t underestimate the challenges she has faced. But clearly she cannot compete in this sport against women.

This explains it very well.
Strangely when she lost tp. Women previously there was no outcryof unfairness

www.threads.net/@chosenkey/post/C-JQkUCS1DQ/

Rio 2016 Olympics- all 3 medals went to men with DSDs in the women’s 800m

And as far as "well it's really very complex ... " argument ...

Until mechanisms are in place to make it not complex and therefore remove ambiguity and uncertainty any individual in question should not compete with biological women.

I realise this isn't completely fair but currently it's not fair and more importantly, safe for women. We are not support humans

That would be a terrible infringement on their rights, oh the trauma, oh the indignity.

Unlike say, a female athlete having to risk her life to compete against a man who should not be in the ring.