Page 34 | To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)

AngeloMysterioso · 2024-08-01T15:11:39+00:00

Angela Carini is the incredibly brave Italian boxer who had her Olympic dream shattered in less than a minute after being punched in the face by Imane Khelif, a male competitor who was disqualified from the women’s World Championships last year because his testosterone levels were too high. Everyone should be saying her name. Over and over and over again.

FOJN · 02/08/2024 07:36

i just think the language used towards this athlete and calling her a man has been quite hateful on this thread. It’s not a simple situation and requires nuance, not just hatred and disgust, as shown by some people.

Using clear, unambiguous sexed language to discuss a situation where sex really matters is not hateful.

No one is ignorant of the challenges and health problems faced by people with DSD's, compassion for them should not come at womens expense.

You want to believe it's so nuanced that women being physically hurt is preferable to hurting a man's feelings. Why are you so hateful towards women?

Tandora · 02/08/2024 07:37

NotBadConsidering · 01/08/2024 23:58

Everyone’s reality is different.

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From the NHS website.

Complete insensitivity to androgens makes a person with XY chromosomes female. Partial insensitivity to androgens can mean that some people are male and others are female.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 07:37

i just think the language used towards this athlete and calling her a man has been quite hateful on this thread.

This bothers you more than him getting into a boxing ring with a woman? That's what you find hateful in this scenario? People using the correct words for an adult male as they explain why pitting a man against a woman in a boxing ring is dangerous and immoral?

It's classic Newspeak to try to stop people having the language required to state the truth and to spread misinformation. "She's a woman and it's a women's event." No, he is a man and that's why he doesn't belong, and if you complain about the language, it's because you want to erase the truth in the correct words. And if that offends you more than what he did to her...

Tandora · 02/08/2024 07:39

Tandora · 02/08/2024 07:37

From the NHS website.

Complete insensitivity to androgens makes a person with XY chromosomes female. Partial insensitivity to androgens can mean that some people are male and others are female.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

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I’m going to avoid getting dragged back in today, but this is for all those who keep insisting it’s as simple as xx=female, xy=male. This is not science. This is not biology. Science and biology and humans are simply more complex than that.

NotBadConsidering · 02/08/2024 07:42

Does everyone remember when the NHS website said puberty blockers were fully reversible? Then had to change it because it was wrong? I do.

Not sure why it’s being held as some voice of authority.

BlueLimeRun · 02/08/2024 07:42

Why do you insist you know more than others ?

I applaud the women who stand up to this nonsense.

Keepingcosy · 02/08/2024 07:45

Whether you believe Khelif is male or female, they have demonstrated in gender testing levels of testosterone and in practice, power that means they are dangerous to even Olympic level female boxers.

Or do posters think Carini should have taken more of the hardest blows she'd felt in her life as a professional boxer?

Pharticle · 02/08/2024 07:47

I think this whole thing shows how misogynist the transphobic crowd really is. Image Khelif won fair and square and people have decided she’s a man because she was too good at her sport. Many biological women have high testosterone, and if you think a country where homosexuality is illegal put forward a trans woman as their Olympic champion I really don’t know what to say to you. Let go of your pathetic hatred, it is embarrasing.

FrenchFancie · 02/08/2024 07:49

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 07:22

If your friend was born with an incomplete uterus then she most likely has MRKH syndrome. This is a DSD which exclusively affects female people, i.e. people with an XX genetic karyotype. You went to school with her so you will know what kind of puberty she went through. I imagine she grew breasts, rather than an Adam's apple, and she does not have a deep voice or hair on her face and chest. Obviously she's female. Having an incomplete uterus means you are a female person with a medical condition. A male person does not have a uterus at all and this is completely normal and not a medical condition.

As for the male boxers in the Olympics, it is quite obvious clear from looking at them that they have been through male puberty. There's absolutely no way on earth that they had no idea they weren't female until a random swab test run by a now discredited organisation in 2023 confirmed it. If they were male but not androgen sensitive they simply would not look the way they do.

However, all of this is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are not female and they have been found to have a competitive advantage over female boxers. It doesn't matter whether they have known this for ten years or two weeks. It doesn't matter how sad they will be if they are disqualified. People's sporting dreams are dashed for medical reasons all the time. Their sadness is not a good reason to deny the female boxers a safe and fair competition. Suggesting that making a biologically male person sad by saying they can't compete in women's categories is unacceptable so instead we will make biologically female people sad (or injured, or dead) by turning the competition they've been training their entire lives for into an unsafe, unfair fiasco is misogyny of the highest order.

Female people are not male people's support humans.

We are not put on this earth to make men happy.

Our rights, our feelings, our opportunities, our achievements, our safety and our dignity are every bit as important as theirs are.

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I have no idea what my friends diagnosis is - as I mentioned, I wouldn’t be so rude as to enquire. She certainly didn’t go through a typical ‘male’ puberty though and very much looks and sounds like a woman (albeit very tall!).

i didn’t actually say in my post that the boxer should be allowed to compete at all costs. It is important that sport is fair and safe for all participants, and that the IOC needs to make a judgement on that. I don’t have access to this persons medical records so I have no idea what her condition is, how it has affected her and how this plays out in competition.

i stand by my comments that the language and tone used on this thread hasn’t been very nice. She’s not ‘pretending’ to be a woman, she’s not trans, she has been brought up female just as much as I have. Maybe she has got a medical condition that prevents her from competing fairly - that’s for the medical team at the IOC to judge. It’s not a question of ‘hurt feelings’ but of their judgement. And without access to medical records we can’t make an informed judgement on that - in either direction.

i do know that the IOC aren’t slap-dash about these things. They have a team of doctors and specialists and they make informed judgements based on the athlete’s medical history. We might not agree with their judgement, but we can’t make an informed judgement based on looks alone.

shouting that she’s got a penis just because there is a fold in her shorts in one photo isn’t acceptable (although I appreciate that you didn’t do that, it was another poster).

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 07:52

Pharticle · 02/08/2024 07:47

I think this whole thing shows how misogynist the transphobic crowd really is. Image Khelif won fair and square and people have decided she’s a man because she was too good at her sport. Many biological women have high testosterone, and if you think a country where homosexuality is illegal put forward a trans woman as their Olympic champion I really don’t know what to say to you. Let go of your pathetic hatred, it is embarrasing.

Khaled was found by the International Boxing Association to have a competitive advantage over women.

Khaled and the other male boxer concerned were allowed to compete at the Olympics due to a technicality, namely the fact that the IBA has been discredited due to corruption and is no longer recognised as an authority by the IOC, which left the sport of boxing uniquely without a governing body to set rules guaranteeing safety and fairness for female boxers.

The fact that this has happened in the sport where letting male athletes compete against women is the most dangerous makes it all the more shocking. Because it's not just the female boxers' chance of winning medals that is under threat, it's their chances of walking out of that boxing ring alive.

Shame on you and everyone endorsing this decision.

Needanewname42 · 02/08/2024 07:53

Maireanto1 · 02/08/2024 00:49

What exactly has the IOC gained by letting him compete? It's not adding up... What if a female recieved life changing injuries due to a bout with him? What happens then? What have they gained? There must be more to this.

Fuck knows I was trying to work that out too.
It makes very little sense that they moved away from XX / XY testing in 2000.
From what I can work out it was to save embarrassing the odd intersex who genuinely believed they were 💯female "be kind" ladies

Except that's been exploited by Caster Sementa and others, watch any studio interview with him and there's zero pretence to be anything other than a full on bloke.

The IOC must know women have been cheated out of athletics medals in less dangerous sports.

They must know this will bring it to a head, so are they wanting to turn back the clock on testosterone testing and go back to chromosome tests or are they trying to get rid of Boxing.

WandsOut · 02/08/2024 07:54

Men punching women in the face is now an Olympic sport.

Her hopes and dreams shattered by a man who then touched her breast whilst she was devastated, in front of the whole world.

x.com/nicholelizaq/status/1819035576559120743?s=46

He's a cheat and his country should be ashamed of him and themselves for putting him forward to beat up women.

nolongersurprised · 02/08/2024 07:56

Pharticle · 02/08/2024 07:47

I think this whole thing shows how misogynist the transphobic crowd really is. Image Khelif won fair and square and people have decided she’s a man because she was too good at her sport. Many biological women have high testosterone, and if you think a country where homosexuality is illegal put forward a trans woman as their Olympic champion I really don’t know what to say to you. Let go of your pathetic hatred, it is embarrasing.

Unwell women may have high testosterone for women, but no woman testosterone in the male range

CaveMum · 02/08/2024 07:57

Pharticle · 02/08/2024 07:47

I think this whole thing shows how misogynist the transphobic crowd really is. Image Khelif won fair and square and people have decided she’s a man because she was too good at her sport. Many biological women have high testosterone, and if you think a country where homosexuality is illegal put forward a trans woman as their Olympic champion I really don’t know what to say to you. Let go of your pathetic hatred, it is embarrasing.

There is no such thing as a healthy woman with “naturally high testosterone” that falls within the male range.

This tweet helps explain what the ranges are for men and women and it is very clear that there is no overlap in healthy individuals (women with cancerous tumours can have levels in the very low male range).

x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984?s=46&t=vZsKCHJJ4lL6NrAoNyJFww

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 08:01

Mumsnet users seem to want to put everyone in two simple boxes ‘man’ or ‘woman’

Oh yes, it's totally just a thing on Mumsnet that there are only two sexes.

WandsOut · 02/08/2024 08:03

"the language and tone used on this thread hasn’t been very nice."

Men beating up women isn't very nice

Maireanto1 · 02/08/2024 08:14

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 02/08/2024 03:08

Standard female = XX chromosomes. A trainer would recognise male strength and physiology in a sport he typically trained men (XY) in. That goes for any sport.

I appreciate I went off on a tangent that's not necessarily relevant to this thread. This Olympics I've made a point to read up on the background of athletes from a wide variety of sports that I wouldn't usually follow. At least twenty-five and counting. I find their journey from youthful interest to elite sport fascinating, many of their stories are not straightforward and have an element of adversity or human interest which is compelling.

I assumed there would be an interesting background in this instance yet I'm finding it really hard to get any kind of picture of how their ability in the sport developed. Whether they were forced to relocate out of necessity. How difficult it was to source funding. Who was instrumental in helping them achieve. Who inspired them. All this detail comes up time and time again in biographies of other Olympians and elite sportspersons, many from small nations or at their first Olympics. I'm not talking Simone Biles level of notoriety.

I've heard at length today how impossible it would be for a transgender individual (which I don't think applies here), an individual with a DSD or an LGBTQ+ individual to be trained and put forward to compete by a strict islamic nation and governing body. That because of that they must be XX and everyone is being outrageous and nasty for questioning why they previously tested XY, didn't seek to contest it and that we must not question it. Told to accept that the flimsy IOC evidence that a passport is enough. My post was really querying how likely it was that a young woman or girl from what has been described as a rural province was trained in a combat sport in a conservative culture. It's not impossible but it seems extremely unlikely. I added a disclaimer that I'd expect them to relocate to a city to pursue their talent and better facilities. I'd feel the same way about a rural village in the UK, ultimately you'd need to travel to enhance your skills. Add in the cultural issues I outlined (which I don't consider xenophobic, unfortunately prescribed gender roles still exist in many conservative cultures across the world, islamic or otherwise). I'd like to know more about how this person overcame those obstacles. They're entitled to their privacy but since they have a platform as an international ambassador (UNICEF) I assumed it would've come up and that they'd use their story to inspire young people to take up the sport.

Edited

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Hopefully neighbours, former peers from this boxing club, schoolmates etc can come out & verify this story.
Who released the photo of the family in which we are led to believe he is the little girl in pink? How authentic is this? Where did he go to school? Secondary? College? I'm very slow to buy what is being peddled here.

NotBadConsidering · 02/08/2024 08:15

Yes, the IOC sanctioned a man to get in the ring and punch a woman in the face, busting her nose, and it’s the language here that’s the problem.

Honestly, I genuinely want to know from someone who is all for this why they think it’s ok for men to punch women in the face in the Olympics. Why?

Maireanto1 · 02/08/2024 08:16

yesmen · 02/08/2024 03:14

Many on the left hate this.

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Absolutely as we have seen on here time & time again this week😁😁

Needanewname42 · 02/08/2024 08:17

Maireanto1 · 02/08/2024 02:46

Thanks for explaining. The cynic in me finds it hard to accept that the IOC has accepted the swimming, athletics along with other sports rulings that no males can compete in female sports. Why won't it accept the boxing finding especially given the high stakes involving female safety?

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1, Money 💰 the root of all evil.
2, They want to have a reason to get rid of Boxing as an Olympic sport.
3, Have a reason to bring back XX / XY testing.

I'm on 1.

Maireanto1 · 02/08/2024 08:18

Frogpole · 02/08/2024 03:29

Khelif was born with Swyer Syndrome. That's a person born with XY - as in male - chromosomes, but with a vagina and much smaller than usual uterus, rather than a penis and testes. They do not have ovaries and can only become pregnant via implantation of another woman's egg. They do not go through female puberty unless given testosterone blockers and female hormones, do not develop breasts for the same reason, and , do not menstruate.

To be clear, that's a woman who happens to have XY chromosomes, not a man who was born with a womb of sorts.

So should Khelif be allowed to box in the women's category? Abso-fcuking-lutely not. Not in a million years.
Look at the photo's of Khelif next to Carini, look at how they're built. To mansplain a stereotype, men's shoulders are three heads wide and women's shoulders are two heads wide - now look how broad Khelif is compared to her.
Look at their very different physiques, muscle tone, subcutaneous fat deposition.. see how Khelif looks to have some pretty well defined musculature while she looks much more.. soft? smooth? however you want to call it. Carini is not unfit or untrained in any way shape or form - she's an absolute fcuking beast. 108 bouts, 84 wins, four of which were by KO, none of which were TKO - she's punched her opponent hard enough to render them unconscious. Khelif doesn't look way more muscular than her because of "good" genetics, it's because of "XY male chromosome" genetics.

Did Khelif ask to be born the way Khelif is? No, of course not.
Is it fair to suggest Khelif shouldn't be allowed to box against other people who have vagi women? Yes, of course it is.
There are all kinds of medical conditions, birth anomalies, genetic reasons, biological reasons, etc why people can't box, Khelif's case is in no way special.
This isn't about kindness, compassion, understanding, and rebuilding the world through the magic of friendship and rainbows - it's about a fcuking bloke who thinks that just because he shit out in the genetics department that the world owes him the right to take part in unfair, dangerous fights and be showered in medals and praise because he's an inspiration to girls all over the world with his bravery and courage for hitting women....

@Frogpole please link your evidence to "Sywer Syndrome" & that this is in fact what Khelif has. Also link your evidence that Khelif has confirmed & verified this.

FOJN · 02/08/2024 08:21

Pharticle · 02/08/2024 07:47

I think this whole thing shows how misogynist the transphobic crowd really is. Image Khelif won fair and square and people have decided she’s a man because she was too good at her sport. Many biological women have high testosterone, and if you think a country where homosexuality is illegal put forward a trans woman as their Olympic champion I really don’t know what to say to you. Let go of your pathetic hatred, it is embarrasing.

"Too good at her sport", really? Most women think Serena Williams is an incredible athlete, not a cheat.

Where is your evidence that "many women" have high testosterone levels. If it's "many" as you claim then surely that just widens what is considered normal range for women. The truth is that there is no overlap in male and female ranges for testosterone. Women with medical conditions which cause high testosterone levels need treatment to avoid the effects of elevated testosterone levels.

You know that in Iran, where homosexuality is also illegal, the state pays for gay men to transition because being a trans woman is preferable to being a gay man.

You can accuse people of hate as often as you like but it really only tells us that you are not capable of a robust discussion about fairness in sport and would prefer to see women hurt or denied opportunities.

Maireanto1 · 02/08/2024 08:22

SSpratt · 02/08/2024 03:52

The Mail has an article about her childhood (for those speculating).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13700783/Inside-tough-childhood-biologically-male-boxer-Imane-Khelif.html

Good on the Daily Mail for referring the Khalif as "the biologically male athlete"!

Helleofabore · 02/08/2024 08:28

Pharticle · 02/08/2024 07:47

I think this whole thing shows how misogynist the transphobic crowd really is. Image Khelif won fair and square and people have decided she’s a man because she was too good at her sport. Many biological women have high testosterone, and if you think a country where homosexuality is illegal put forward a trans woman as their Olympic champion I really don’t know what to say to you. Let go of your pathetic hatred, it is embarrasing.

I think this position shows just how ignorant and misogynistic you are.

There is no overlap in the healthy ranges of testosterone levels of male and female people. None. This is misinformation you are spreading here to support your ideological, and clearly prejudiced, view.

WandsOut · 02/08/2024 08:31

Punched her and then cupped her breast!

Is that also ok for all the male violence defenders in this post?

x.com/nicholelizaq/status/1819035576559120743?s=46 omg