A woman has to box a man today at the Olympics. AIBU to be scared for her?

[ilovemoney]

Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif: Boxers cleared for Paris Olympics - BBC Sport

They are both biological males. Its to IOC, International Olympic committee. There will be a protest and i know another female Irish boxer has pulled out but surely this cant stand. The women could be seriously injured.

The olympics is for elite boxers, who choose to get in the ring. They have spent their whole career getting into the ring with people who might wipe the floor with them. The ones who get to the olympics are the ones who wipe the floor with others, leaving a trail of broken noses behind them

And at the elite level, men consistently outperform women. Elite women cannot beat men who rank as highly among their sex as they do. In effect, elite women can only beat subpar men.

And while there are risks in boxing, those risks are magnified many times when a man, who will have advantages over an equivalently ranking woman including higher haemoglobin, more testosterone (the levels transwomen must achieve to compete as women would get a female athlete disqualified for doping), more fast twitch muscle for explosive power, more favourable Q angle, and more.

When you prioritise a male person's wish never to have to confront the reality of sex over a female person's right to compete fairly and as safely as possible, you're literally saying male ego and satisfaction is worth broken female bones.

Every boxer has had the experience of never being hot that hard before in their life. It doesn't prove that either of these boxers hit harder than the hardest hitting woman.

Why do you think boxing has separate male and female categories?

The olympics is for elite boxers, who choose to get in the ring. They have spent their whole career getting into the ring with people who might wipe the floor with them. The ones who get to the olympics are the ones whoo wipe the floor with others, leaving a trail of broken noses behind them

Regardless, they still need to be in the correct sex category. I do martial arts. I've sparred girls, boys, men, and women. I notice a massive difference in power between 12-year-old boys and girls, and it gets worse as they get older. If a man in class were to spar me using full power, I'd likely be dead. They don't. They are respectful and focus on foot movements, etc. And now I know how powerful men are; it's bloody terrifying.

It doesn’t matter whether they punch harder than the hardest hitting woman. It’s beyond ridiculous that you even think this now that I can’t imagine you’re posting in good faith.

It's staggering to behold the lengths to which some people will go to press the rights of men to harm women if they want to.

Really staggering.

So, I’ll just break this down-

Someone who failed the eligibility test for women’s boxing two years in a row, becaus, you know…

Defeats a female champion in 46 seconds due to their massive advantage in arm length, upper body strength, speed and muscle mass.

Highly trained Female champion has to concede as she’d rather not be permanently injured by her opponent.

Apparently this is fine because the opponent has an F in their passport, women boxers are used to being punched, and so it’s all ok.

Bollox is it.

Anyone defending this situation is supporting organised and sanctioned male on female violence. This is a man who is ineligible to fight women under international boxing regs. An administrative glitch allows them to be here, to beat up women, and some people want to support it.

That tells me all I need to know about Tan and Cosy.

Thank you but I’ll stay right here , on mumsnet, and continue to defend the rights and dignity of trans , sex variant and gender non conforming individuals , no matter how much vitriol you throw at me, because Lord only knows it is desperately needed.

It really is

It's the typical uneducated, ignorant, nonsensical statement one has come to expect from that lot.

Yes, because as we all know men are really suffering right now and need championing.

Any sympathy for them ends when they decided the silver lining of their medical condition was taking the opportunity to cause great harm to women.

I do like that somebody on The Right Side of History is going really hard for "she asked for it" as a justification. It's very impressive, but doesn't demonstrate quite as much dedication to the cause as "unapproved language is worse than being a Southport rioter."

Gosh we were going for pages, unchaperoned before you managed to get the "transphobic" scold in! Where were you?

In all seriousness, by dismissing our real concerns about safety and fairness, you are implying that cheating is inherent to a trans identity. That's the real transphobia. Not all trans people seek to smash women's boundaries like this, not all trans people would wish to cheat at sport.

If you consider yourself a trans ally, you might take a moment to think about how you represent the trans people.you purport to care about.

You are right about that! The tide has turned & females will not be silenced.

@Tandora
(These are the very same “gender criticals” who try to shut down any mention of people with variations in sex characteristics when they assert their monopoly on definitions of sex and gender on threads about trans issues. Tracks)

When we are talking about men without DSDs going into women's spaces and sports, we object to attempts to use those with DSDs as a distraction.

When we are talking about men with DSDs beating up women, we do want to talk about men with DSDs.

It's not complicated.

They do lack dignity. I can agree with you on that.

Meanwhile, a yachting race has just been abandoned because the wind shifted and gave some competitors an unfair advantage. Could not make this up!

They wouldn’t need defending if they weren’t big bollocking cheats.

And stop accusing women with PCOS of being ’less than’ female.

*vitriol and gender shaming. Although I did enjoy the reference to my literal and figurative bollocks 😂😂

How is it a violation of a male person's rights and dignity to compete against other male people?

But you won’t answer my question as to what you think of the transman in the womens boxing catagory? Why’s that?

"All this is is the usual angry transphobic mumsnet mob , the sex fascists, flat-terfers, now coming after people with variations in sex characteristics. Next they’ll be having a go at women with PCOS perhaps"

This is still a very remarkable post from Tandora.

It really does go to show when someone sees their overly emotionally manipulative tactics in arguing their point fail, they resort to this type of attack.

No, any transphobic posts on mumsnet is deleted. We have realised from the past though that you, and other posters, have your own personal definitions of transphobia that doesn't represent the general populations understanding of the word.

Sex fascists. Blimey the hyperbole here in this Tandora is remarkable. Are you really wanting readers to think that people who prioritise sex over gender (or in this case, emotional feelings) when sex does matter are sex fascists? Well. That is hilarious. But at the same time, I feel sad for someone who cannot cope with arguments without resorting to this extreme kind of labelling.

flat-terfers. Another hilarious one. Great combination of trying to portray those people who understand that sex cannot be changed and that there are only two sexes are that ones like people who believe that the earth is flat. I think from the majority of the UK's population's perspective, it is the other way around. And that one person's philosophical belief cannot change the material reality of established sex categories in humans.

now coming after people with variations in sex characteristics, well no. There is no 'coming after'. There is discussion around what is now a significant incident of a female athlete who has a broken nose within the very first seconds of a bout with a male athlete who should never have been allowed to compete. If you, personally, choose to make a person from a particular sub group of people unable to be criticised for their decisions, then that is great to know about you. It also means that you lack the knowledge of safeguarding principles that should be applied to female participation in sport. So, I think tandora this shows some ignorance on your part to attempt this very lazy emotionally manipulative attack.

PCOS. I think you will see posts on this thread that clearly state that female people with PCOS are most certainly not male people, nor do they have testosterone in the male range. So, this is just an exaggeration coming from your very own, very clear prejudice at this point.

Well done though. It was a great post for showing just how hyperbolic people can get when they realise that their position, based on philosophical belief, is really not defensible in the light of science and material reality. And when those who have tried to control the language and discussion around such issues have fuck all ability to discuss it rationally. Great job.

Do we actually know that they were born male? Daily Mail...not normally a bastion of fairness, is reporting more in line with them being intersex ie their chromosomes and/or hormones not aligning with their external organs at birth? I have seen no suggestion, other than on here, that they have changed gender from what they were assigned at birth.

Are you going to allow this @ mumsnet HQ ?I presume so…

@Tandora tell me what miracle takes place that turns men into women? The answer is nothing happens. Biologically they are still men with greater strength and height. The same applies to men with a DSD. They may appear to have female genitalia but they are still men. In fact those DSDs are only found in men. Females with a DSD are still females and their DSDs are confined to the female sex.
As such men should not be in a competition for females. You can sympathise or empathise with them all you like, but women and their sports should not be sacrificed on the altar of male cheeters.