shocked my best friend voted Reform

[clearmoon]

Long standing close friend came round for dinner and we were nattering away, and she just mentioned off hand in the conversation that she had voted Reform. i am really shocked. We don't discuss politics much. But I would have guessed lib dems or labour. I love her dearly. But I do wonder if I should think about her differently now, or just carry on as before

YANBU - She is not such a good person as I thought all these years
YABU-its all fine

Got that little rant off your chest @orchiddottyback

Aww bless good night, its been a long weekend. 💕

One in eight of votes went to Reform. I seriously hope every single one of us knows someone who voted for them or else we are creating our own echo chambers.

“I could go on but don’t suppose there’s any point with you,”

With me? What’s that supposed to mean, exactly?

Did you miss the part where I explicitly stated I wasn’t a supporter? That I was genuinely curious about views on specific policies within the manifesto?

🙄🙃

Yes, I did. In which case I apologise.

There were no Reform candidates in any of the constituencies near me, the county is pretty much a Labour stronghold. I spoiled my paper. In my seventies, I feel politically homeless.

I don’t support the thugs who use any excuse to destroy property or attack the police. However I understand why support for the right is growing. More and more ordinary people feel ignored, and not listened to. The leaders in this country are perceived to look after new arrivals at great expense, whilst many of our poorest people can’t see a dentist or doctor, and can’t get housing. Now lots of old people on low incomes (a tad above benefits level) are losing their heating allowance. Labour was always a party for the ‘working class’. Now they are appearing to put any minority group before the majority. I can’t see it ending well.

Why is it the current Labour government's fault that people can't see a dentist or a doctor?

@ilovesooty I said the leaders, referring to government in general. I think we all know that the quality and availability of health services has been failing under the Tories. However, Labour have been voted in, and really must show that they are listening to the most disadvantaged from all backgrounds. Not sure they realise this, if they did, their approach to the WFA for low income pensioners might have been less divisive.

.

I wonder how many people have actually read and party's manifesto in entirely tbh. And really it doesn't make much odds as they are quick enough to change stuff if they get into power

Yes I agree, its not down to Labour. But they must come up with solutions quickly as legitimately blaming the last lot is time limited.

But the point is that the deal for the working (and I do mean working, as in full time tax payers) class isn't looking too great at the moment. Many perceive that the governments priorities lie with people less deserving. Of course, reality is more nuanced the the recent rioting thugs are capable of processing, but the optics are pretty poor at times when you turn on the TV. The media and the politics it drives are obsessed with trans issues, we see people bending over backwards to not offend other cultures yet we decry traditionally English activities as somehow nationalistic, and after a day of graft only to see a record tax burden on them, they hear about another 10,000 refugees from pretty safe countries being put up in a nice hotel. And as the pp said, after all that you can't see a doctor or a dentist. So I really can see how people feel that the mainstream established parties are letting them down and are persuaded to vote for Reform.

I have read Reform UK's party manifesto. But it is strange to claim we can't understand Reform UKs policies without reading the manifesto. Although I suspect many who voted Reform have not read the manifesto. They don't realise it means the end of the NHS.

Reform were looking at a health service more aligned to a French one, and I suppose a lot of people thought well if it works for the French why not here?

In all honesty if we are to continue to have a health service the amount of money wasted needs to be sorted. I have read on here from nurses who have said there's plenty of money but it's not managed properly.

Reform ignore that the French pay much higher taxes for their healthcare. Reform also want lower taxes. The manifesto is a load of shit.

That could be said for all them.

Not sure this: www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/france/tax-in-france/
is much higher than UK rates @AvrielFinch . Much lower for lower earners and probably better for the higher earners too. Not sure if they have an NI equivalent of the personal allowance is eroded above £100k like ours is.

@Everanewbie you are only counting income tax. When you earn over £23,620 you pay 30% income tax, much higher than UK. For health services people in France have co pays. When you visit the doctor in France, the healthcare system will typically cover 70% of the fees and 80% of hospital costs, unless you have certain serious illnesses when 100% is covered.

I would be happy to pay more for decent health services. But Reform say they want a French style health service plus lower taxes. It is not possible. We would get a US style where it would be like the current NHS dentistry i.e. extremely hard to get NHS healthcare, so most people would be forced to go private.

If you really like and respect your friend, this might be an opportunity for self-reflection rather than deciding she must sudden;y be beyond the pale.

What's more likely - that you haven't really understood why people make the voting choices they do, or you haven't listened with an open mind to people's social and political concerns? Or your friend has, all this time, without you being aware, been a really terrible person?

27,478 as of 2022. But it depends on your income level, some will pay more in France, some will pay less. Someone on 78k in France will only pay a top rate of 30% whereas in England you will pay a top rate of 40%. Likewise if you earn in excess of £125k in England, you will pay 45% with no personal allowance, whereas France you pay 41%, no idea whether the personal allowance is removed in France and as I said, no idea whether there is an NI equivalent. If no NI and personal allowance, I'd say tax is lower in France as a general rule, not higher.

But that is interesting re: health costs. I suppose it would depend on the cost of the insurance to cover the 20/30%.

Some would look back as far as Blair for the beginning of the decline of the NHS. Even though he seemed to make gains, he did it in a way that has, long term, strangled it through fees paid to P3 providers, even today.

But whether you see that as significant or not, there is a huge feeling that Labour has abandoned working class concerns. True, they haven't been in government, but they have acted as members of the opposition, they've recommended or opposed policy, had manifestos, and so on.

In the end, this is because Labour simply is no longer a working class party. It is the party mainly of urban middle class professionals - in many ways the dominant social class. The views of most LP supporters and members and MPs reflect that, Brexit and immigration being the most clear. Controlling movement of labour, and controlling economic regulation for the benefit of local labour - the "somewheres" - has always been a huge focus of parties of labour and the working class.

The fact that many LP supporters and members think that is a crazy idea, or more often are unaware of it, and their attitude to people who think it is important, makes it very clear that the LP is now reflecting the educated middle classes - the people who overall benefit from cheap labour, and porous borders, and are not attached to any particular place.

It's really difficult to see how anyone could see them as a traditional working class party these days.

In any case, I suspect for many Reform is a protest vote, which really has to be understood a little differently than a vote for someone who has a chance to win. It's not always about them having a fully formed manifesto, or sometimes even liking the balance of their policies.

I voted Reform and shared this on social media. I voted for them because I actually read their manifesto and what they were saying seemed like common sense and was about changing things I wanted to see change. I'm not a racist. People seem to have an extremely negative view of the party which is not based on any facts, rather it is based on assumptions or generalisations by the hugely left wing media. I suggest you read Reform's manifesto for yourself and educate yourself. I shared my vote because I genuinely feel they were offering a decent solution and I wanted to challenge a very left status quo where we live. The result has been a shocking amount of alienation...some of which from close friends. I find it both very sad and also pathetic that people could be so judgemental and scared in their little cliques that they would lose people they care about over a different view. You should get off your moral high horse and open your mind to what Reform is actually saying. Trust your friend. If you like them and they are clever and a good person why would they be voting for a party that is either extremely cruel or racist or bigoted? You know your friend. Unfortunately you are being influenced by a one-sided media which is aggressively left and by the pressure to be woke and to be seen to be so. This country is in a mess and needs change. Believing immigration needs to be controlled does not make someone a racist. A racist is someone who hates people from other countries or of other religions.

So she’s not even British but thinks she gets a say because she’s white? That’s putrid.

They'll just put a spoiled ballot in the bin. Does nothing, I'm afraid.

I think voting reform is a possibly protest vote about immigration. Also a mad urge to be back in the 1950s without any understanding of the economics and issues.