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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Daily mail article, integration has failed in Germany. Aibu to agree with article?

483 replies

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 12:00

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13687565/Children-radicalised-mosques-11-knives-crime-verdict-German-child-refugee-charity-integration-failed-asylum-seekers.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=

Aibu to agree to an extent?

German refugee charity warns 'integration has FAILED'

In a bombshell interview, staff at a leading youth organisation in Germany have said the continuing influx of refugees means the system is at breaking point. They called for a 'freeze' in admissions.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13687565/Children-radicalised-mosques-11-knives-crime-verdict-German-child-refugee-charity-integration-failed-asylum-seekers.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline&ns_campaign=1490&ns_mchannel=rss

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Dweetfidilove · 31/07/2024 14:18

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 12:20

Yes I have, many times! My cousin is married to a German man & they have kids in school there. Education is on the decline like it is here due to similar problems regarding teacher shortages, absenteeism etc. There is a lot wrong within the country.

May I ask how immigration is responsible for the decline in education here? Teacher shortages are generally due to lack of funding, behavioural problems, increased bureaucracy, lack of support etc.

Absenteeism and behavioural problems are lower in immigrant children who, according to statistics, also have higher standards of literacy and GCSE attainment.

Redhil · 31/07/2024 14:18

ll09sm · 31/07/2024 12:26

Are we playing bingo yet?

No one has turned up to rubbish this by saying it’s in the ‘daily fail’. Because it’s such an original thing to say.

And go ‘oi racist’ to shut down the debate.

But it is the daily fail and they are racist . That's probably why you've already anticipated the response. I do understand what dm is trying to highlight in their many utter rubbish stories but it's a shame they don't actually come out and say what's bothering them rather then writing a story and leaving all their readers to lose their minds. Every story that involves a Muslim person gets their religion quoted every other person is just their name in the story. OK daily mail we get it you hate Muslims but apart from religion based terror some of these ppl aren't committing crime because they are Muslim, they just disgusting in their character. And what is the other thing most of these ppl have in common.. they all tend to be men but you don't see anyone picking up on this , it's easier to blame religion.

Bushmillsbabe · 31/07/2024 14:18

cupcaske123 · 31/07/2024 14:07

These are also the problems I found with lack of integration. I worked in a very diverse area where there were generations of poverty. Women in particular were very badly effected. Due to cultural norms they didn't learn English and therefore could not live independently. They brought their children to interpret for them and could not navigate any aspect of life such as filling out forms, speaking to a Dr or worst, getting help for domestic abuse.

The victims of abuse did not want to approach culturally specific organisations because they were afraid of it getting back to their families and they were completely trapped. They could not get a job because they couldn't speak English, they had no idea of their rights and had nowhere to go.

Absolutely, and this meant they often didn't seek help for 'personal' health challenges. If a women is experiencing issues with her periods, she isn't going to want her son interpreting this for her. So she will suffer in silence.
Interpreters should be available, but from my experience of using, many are unprofessional, put their own opinions onto what they are interpreting, so there can be a lack of clarity. Plus they are extremely expensive. We pay up to £50 an hour for ours, and have to pay for an hour even if only need 10 mins. That's an additional cosy the cash strapped nhs could do without, that money would be much better spent on language classes

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:28

Dulra · 31/07/2024 14:12

Why don't you change your thread title to global persecution of Christians because none of this has anything to do with your original post or thread title

It's not the direction I wanted the thread to go on but I was asked how I would improve integration & for me a very valid point is that I should feel safe practising my religion in any country I choose.
I'll happily go back to discussing the article stating the failure of integration in Germany.

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 31/07/2024 14:28

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 13:43

People are no longer accepting no debate & are not afraid of being labelled "far right" or "bigots".

Well that much is obvious. The racists and bigots are now proudly owing their racism and bigotry.

Newbutoldfather · 31/07/2024 14:31

Immigration is such a polar issue.

We get genuine racists who dislike other cultures and people who look different. But, on the other side you get the (generally wealthy and well educated) who are very quick to call out ‘racism’ over any reservations over uncontrolled immigration and immigrants who have no desire to integrate or learn the language of the country they are immigrating into.

The reality is that all countries need immigration. It provides diversity and, in developed western nations, young workers to support the aging population.

OTOH, low skill migration does drive down wages for the working classes while providing cost savings for the wealthy. This just drives inequality further and forces people to either subsist on benefits or work for a pittance.

In addition, nations have a culture and set of values. Why else would British Cultural values be a part of PSHE? And immigrants should broadly accept these and want to integrate into society, If they don’t, society risks fracturing and it is an invitation to real racists. We can see that happening across Europe.

Nation states do have value to many people. I think the book ‘Citizens of Everywhere’ makes a good point. We, as in the developed world, need immigration but we need to think of what pace is acceptable and what immigrants we want.

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:32

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 31/07/2024 14:28

Well that much is obvious. The racists and bigots are now proudly owing their racism and bigotry.

Edited

People aren't racists & bigots because you say they are. Also calling a person racist is defamatory. Be careful, words matter.

OP posts:
Exactlab · 31/07/2024 14:38

BobbyBiscuits · 31/07/2024 12:15

I don't know, I've never been to Germany. Have you OP?

Does it matter for the point of the discussion??

ll09sm · 31/07/2024 14:38

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 31/07/2024 14:28

Well that much is obvious. The racists and bigots are now proudly owing their racism and bigotry.

Edited

What’s your view on the stupid owning their stupidity? Any chance of that any time soon?

Dylanesque · 31/07/2024 14:39

Language is paramount to integration. But different cultures can't be fully integrated because they aren't rooted in the traditions and customs of the host country. Some (not all) will keep the next generations away from it too. In the case of the UK and Germany, take Christmas for example. There's a lot more behind it than present-giving. What does the joy of a Christkindl market that has been there since medieval times mean to an immigrant who refuses to experience it? Or a Christmas carol concert? People get resentful when there attempts to diminish their heritage

MixedCouple2 · 31/07/2024 14:40

As someone from Africa i find integration has not occured from the White people who move here for work etc. They don't integrate. They don't learn the culture and language. They expect weatern standards of everything and make no / little effort to learn the language. This includes the Germans that come here. Infact they want us to learn their language!!!!

There is no news article about it. There is no slamming of this behaviour. Because they are expats and everyone else is just a foreigner an immigrant. White supremacy strikes again!
I think everyone needs to pipe down and realise white people do it all the time, they have historically and they will continue to do so. I forget the saying, is it the pot calling the kettle black, comes to mind every time.

LadyKenya · 31/07/2024 14:40

Wellieswithsocks · 31/07/2024 14:09

If you are unable to produce the examples you should probably retract the accusation.

Not unable to, just unwilling to play that game!

HappierTimesAhead · 31/07/2024 14:41

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:32

People aren't racists & bigots because you say they are. Also calling a person racist is defamatory. Be careful, words matter.

I don't think calling someone racist on an anonymous forum would hold up as defamation in a court of law.

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:41

ll09sm · 31/07/2024 14:38

What’s your view on the stupid owning their stupidity? Any chance of that any time soon?

They don't know the meaning of the word, are too ignorant & arrogant to get the definition. Much easier for them to shout "bigot", "racist" & "far right" every opportunity they get.

OP posts:
Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:43

HappierTimesAhead · 31/07/2024 14:41

I don't think calling someone racist on an anonymous forum would hold up as defamation in a court of law.

Well there is a world outside mumsnet you know. I was just kindly advising the op to police her speech as calling a person a racist could get one into a lot of trouble in real world!

OP posts:
cupcaske123 · 31/07/2024 14:44

Dylanesque · 31/07/2024 14:39

Language is paramount to integration. But different cultures can't be fully integrated because they aren't rooted in the traditions and customs of the host country. Some (not all) will keep the next generations away from it too. In the case of the UK and Germany, take Christmas for example. There's a lot more behind it than present-giving. What does the joy of a Christkindl market that has been there since medieval times mean to an immigrant who refuses to experience it? Or a Christmas carol concert? People get resentful when there attempts to diminish their heritage

That isn't true. We've had centuries of immigration to the UK by people who have integrated successfully.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 31/07/2024 14:44

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:32

People aren't racists & bigots because you say they are. Also calling a person racist is defamatory. Be careful, words matter.

No, of course people aren't racists and bigots because I say they are. If only I had that much influence!

People are racists and bigots because they choose to be.

There is a tremendous irony in your statement that "words matter". It is pretty obvious that many of us are posting on your thread precisely because we know just how much words matter. And we know that it is important to counter certain words and statements with different ones.

I am not entirely sure why you think it is defamatory to call someone a racist if they are actually a racist, but you will note that I have not in fact called anyone a racist on this thread. Of course, if people think the cap fits...

HappierTimesAhead · 31/07/2024 14:44

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:43

Well there is a world outside mumsnet you know. I was just kindly advising the op to police her speech as calling a person a racist could get one into a lot of trouble in real world!

Really?! I had no idea!
I doubt the previous poster needs your advice on that one tbh.

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Notonthestairs · 31/07/2024 14:45

Unless you are using your real name id suggest there is no risk to your personal reputation.

Dulra · 31/07/2024 14:45

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:28

It's not the direction I wanted the thread to go on but I was asked how I would improve integration & for me a very valid point is that I should feel safe practising my religion in any country I choose.
I'll happily go back to discussing the article stating the failure of integration in Germany.

That is everyone's wish though, but it is not the reality for many and that is why they often flee their countries and look for asylum where they will be safe, but people don't want immigrants so what are we to do. I'm not sure why you can't join up the dots ....

Newbutoldfather · 31/07/2024 14:46

@MixedCouple2 ,

That is a really interesting point!

However, most expats are high skill, high earning and presumably contributing good tax revenue. Hopefully they are also not doing things like standing for MPs based on their views of what should be happening in the UK or U.S.

And they are generally not large in number.

However, it is bad and bigoted not to want to integrate at all or want to learn the local language and I wouldn’t blame local people if they got sick of them.

TheCookieCrumblesThisWay · 31/07/2024 14:47

Dylanesque · 31/07/2024 14:39

Language is paramount to integration. But different cultures can't be fully integrated because they aren't rooted in the traditions and customs of the host country. Some (not all) will keep the next generations away from it too. In the case of the UK and Germany, take Christmas for example. There's a lot more behind it than present-giving. What does the joy of a Christkindl market that has been there since medieval times mean to an immigrant who refuses to experience it? Or a Christmas carol concert? People get resentful when there attempts to diminish their heritage

who says immigrants don't attend Christkindlesmarkts?

Mimififi · 31/07/2024 14:47

HappierTimesAhead · 31/07/2024 14:44

Really?! I had no idea!
I doubt the previous poster needs your advice on that one tbh.

Maybe the op doesn't need my advice but going around calling people racist either online in the real world will never go down well & could lead to serious consequences. Just a friendly reminder☺️

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 31/07/2024 14:47

more left tactics
pulling the racism card

Yeah. Words matter 🙄

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