I would swap with her in an instant

[Cookiecrumblane]

I am a sort of clever woman, financially secure, good at what I do. I have lots of friends and family around me, despite being single.
Today I met a woman through a friend, ten years younger than me. She was upset at losing her job last month, she had tried but made a serious of errors and was eventually sacked.
Even as she cried, she looked beautiful. She told me about her various problems, not being able to pay rent, her debt, her self esteem.
And I thought how much I would love to be that pretty. She was distraught, but even with all that was going on, she was served first and efficiently in the bar. Men held doors and beamed at her. They crossed the street to walk closer to her.
I have never had that. And so what good is education, my job, my success. Because ultimately she'll end up ok. She is more likely to get a job and when she does people will praise what she does much more than they praise people who look like me.
Is that mad? That I would swap with her in an instant, even to be jobless and at risk of losing my flat, just to feel visible?
I'm sure men don't feel this way.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos this is an anonymous forum. We aren't giving you specific examples because we wish to remain anonymous and not being recognised by our friends or colleagues.

Then you omit details that would lead to identification.

We also shouldn't have to give you specific examples for you to believe that we've heard men speaking like this. Or that we've been subjected to men treating us like this.

Well I haven't heard it, and being a man, that means they are less likely to filter their words around me. So if this was true, I should have heard it.

What do we have to gain by lying on an anonymous forum???

I don't think you are lying. I think you are just mistaken.

People spend a lot of time watching TV, and it is easy to conflate what you see on TV with real life. For example, misogyny tends to be massively exaggerated on TV (you know, because men are always the bad guys). People see this stuff on TV and this subconsciously changes their brain so they think this is the way men actually are.

I do not watch TV, so I am largely immune to this.

You're a man. Of course you think we women are mistaken. You clearly know more about our own lives experiences than we do.

I completely apologise for thinking I knew more about what's happened in my own life than any random male stranger.

I was not mistaken when I had to give evidence in a disciplinary at work when a group of male colleagues were sharing nudes of a young female colleague one had had sex with. I'm happy to offer this anecdote without fear of it being outing as sadly this isn't sufficiently uncommon as to identify me or her.

If that's not enough, my partner and adult sons looked at me in some surprise when I just asked them if any men spoke like this. The surprise being that that i was naive enough to have to ask. And before I get told the men in my life should keep better company, I assure you, they try to. Unfortunately they have no control over who they work alongside, who attends their gym or the other members of their sports teams.

Sure you weren't watching Corrie and confused it with your own life????

Certainly not. I rarely watch television. I tend to spend my evenings in my local The Rovers. There's an old guy who goes in there, Ken something, always bragging about women.

🤣🤣🤣

Lucky your feeble female mind can tell the difference!

All the posters shocked and appalled by the OP, shaking their heads and telling her to get therapy know darn well many (if not most) women would feel the same. Perhaps we as a society need therapy, but pretending like what OP felt is uncommon and weird, is ridiculous.

Is this a joke?

You might feel the same as OP, I don't. How would you know what "most" women feel?

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos You're a man. Of course you think we women are mistaken. You clearly know more about our own lives experiences than we do.

The claims aren't just about your own lies and experiences though. Your claims are about how men talk and act in the workplace. I would also challenge men who made the same claims.

@5128gap I was not mistaken when I had to give evidence in a disciplinary at work when a group of male colleagues were sharing nudes of a young female colleague one had had sex with. I'm happy to offer this anecdote without fear of it being outing as sadly this isn't sufficiently uncommon as to identify me or her.

You're the first person to provide a specific example, but I imagine this scenario is very uncommon. Of all the men I have worked with, I have never seen anything that comes to close to this.

The problem is @shuggles you can't prove a negative here. We can 'prove' (if you accept people's word on these forums as proof, as etiquette requires us to) that we know it goes on be relating to you our experience. You can only 'prove' you have no knowledge of it going on. And a lack of knowledge of something does not prove its non existence. I for example, have never heard two men discussing cycling. However I'm prepared to accept they do. I'm also not sure why you are so keen to sway opinion on this. If you're a man, what other men say about women is nothing to do with your life surely? We're not accusing you of being such a man.

@5128gap I'm also not sure why you are so keen to sway opinion on this.

Because some women have an erroneous perception of men that men are basically just women that look different. Women look through dating apps with their friends, so men must be doing the same thing. Women talk about their relationships, so men must be doing the same thing.

The above is not the case. Sex, love, and relationships are a solitary experience for men. We don't seek validation or approval from other men.

And as I said before, who do you think men would even share their sexual experiences with? Most men above the age of 30 don't have any friends.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos , we have received the mansplanation, so I want to add my apologies. Clearly we have both confused real life with TV 😂😂😂😂

Now speaking for all men.

I have many male friends over the age of 30. They all have friends. I think it’s clear from the way you are interacting with people on MumsNet why you don’t.

@VickyPollard25

😂😂😂

So you leaned this from TV?!

@VickyPollard25 No, because I already knew it. That sketch backs me up.

You have the same feeble female brain as us, as you're confusing TV with real life.

I was the only female in one of my college classes. I had to listen to those male students talk about which girls on campus were doable.

I was the only female on my degree course. That was four years of hearing young men brag about the "hottie" they'd pulled last night. Spending time in labs overhearing them talking about whether or not they thought I would put out, or if they would bother trying because they thought I was "stuck up" (because I ignored a lot of them and just got on with my work).

I was called into meetings to confirm the conversations I'd overheard to help investigate sexual assault claims.

I had my male professors react with surprise when I was able to answer questions or give better explanations than my male peers. And you know that's because they looked at me in terms of my looks and not my mind.

I've heard colleagues in my jobs in retail, healthcare, automotive industry and now finance talking about what they think of the new girl(s) in terms of how attractive she/they are and whether they'd have a go if they were single.

I've had male colleagues talk to me about how gorgeous the new girl / the temp / Sarah from Ops is and whether I thought, as a woman, they'd have a chance to "get with her".

I've had my bum grabbed/slapped and been spoken to like I should be grateful for the attention, then a surprised/hurt reaction when I ha e stood up for myself. At work. In university classrooms. In the street.

But you know, despite working as a senior person in a very analytical role and being trusted to make decisions for a FTSE500 company, I must be lying and confusing the TV with my own life. Because you're a man and know about my life much better than me. And I obviously spend time watching soaps where these things happen, rather than doing anything more worthwhile with my time. Cos I'm a silly little woman.

I also think you have an erroneous view of the world.

I have never talked about my relationship with my friends beyond things like "BF proposed, we're getting married" and so on. Or given reasons why one didn't work out.

My DH and his brothers are all well over 30. As is my dad and my BIL and my uncles and all of my male friends (which I made while being the only woman in many classes/roles). They all have a circle of friends.

You're making it very clear on here that you don't have friends, and actually probably why you don't hear men talk like this. They likely stop talking when you appear.

I have many male friends over the age of 30. They all have friends. I think it’s clear from the way you are interacting with people on MumsNet why you don’t

Indeed. I'm still friends with a bunch of people I've known from school- all over 30, we all have friends (including the men in the group). My husband has male friends and is over 30. My business partner's husband, also well over 30, also has several male friends- he was recently best man at his friend's wedding, my male cousin has a best mate and other friends, my uncle has friends, my dad had friends (before he passed away), the men I work with have friends and they are all over 30, I could go on and on.

In fact, I dont think I know of any man over 30 who literally has no friends. Therefore, Shuggles, by your own rationale, it is YOU who are lying.

Your sure men don’t feel envious of other men that women find charming and sexy and funny are you? Men that just walk in a as room and capture women’s interest? Your absolutely sure of that are you?

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos You have the same feeble female brain as us, as you're confusing TV with real life.

I never said that conflation of TV with real life is something that's specific to women. You are making things up that I never said.

I believe that conflation of TV with real life is universal among the British population, and the wider western world, which habitually watches bad TV shows on streaming services. That applies to both men and women.

However, it does not apply to me because I very rarely watch TV.

@realityhack What you are saying is applicable to a small circle of men. The men you know have friends, in your circle.

There are countless men who do not have friends, that are unknown to you.

And yet the only "evidence" you were able to provide was.....a TV sketch.

Demanding evidence from the women opposing your view, however, and then ignoring it when provided.

You're doing a really good job of making everyone's point but your own. Well done.