I would swap with her in an instant

[Cookiecrumblane]

I am a sort of clever woman, financially secure, good at what I do. I have lots of friends and family around me, despite being single.
Today I met a woman through a friend, ten years younger than me. She was upset at losing her job last month, she had tried but made a serious of errors and was eventually sacked.
Even as she cried, she looked beautiful. She told me about her various problems, not being able to pay rent, her debt, her self esteem.
And I thought how much I would love to be that pretty. She was distraught, but even with all that was going on, she was served first and efficiently in the bar. Men held doors and beamed at her. They crossed the street to walk closer to her.
I have never had that. And so what good is education, my job, my success. Because ultimately she'll end up ok. She is more likely to get a job and when she does people will praise what she does much more than they praise people who look like me.
Is that mad? That I would swap with her in an instant, even to be jobless and at risk of losing my flat, just to feel visible?
I'm sure men don't feel this way.

“Pretty privilege” absolutely exists and is completely unfair so you are quite right to a degree OP.
But what can you do? No point throwing your pinny over your head and sitting in the corner as my grandmother used to say.
You have to make the best of the other great attributes you have.
The world is unfair is many, many ways especially to women.

I'm not changing myself. I don't want to have straight hair, or a smaller nose or be a size six to compete with a 27 year old, 5"8 white woman with green eyes

I dont think you should "change" yourself either if you dont want to but it's a bit silly to moan about feeling unattractive and then say in the same breath you wont do anything about it. If being overweight and hairy bothers you, you absolutely can do something about that- same with having blotchy skin. You have the finances to address those things, many, many women do.

I have rosacea for example, and when it's bad it can make me look all red, spotty and blotchy, so I invested in good skincare/saw a dermatologist and now it's barely noticeable and I have great skin. But it involved some effort on my part, it didnt just magically disappear overnight because I was moaning about how unfair it was. I actually took action to fix it.

I agree.

There are also a disproportionate number of women who claim they were beautiful in their youth even taking into account that beauty is subjective.

In my lifetime I have known two beautiful women. With one woman, men approached her constantly on the street to tell her she was beautiful. Men we worked with flirted outrageously with her. Of course posters will shout that by now she’s old and fat and her beauty was a disadvantage to her. We aren’t in contact much anymore but the last I know about her is she’s happily married to a wealthy man , has three kids and models clothes.

I have known the other woman for thirty five years. I didn’t think she was beautiful but ten years ago I bumped into a mutual male friend who waxed lyrical about her beauty and how everyone at uni thought she was the most beautiful woman they’d ever seen) She has risen as high as she can go in her career (mid 40s) and does a lot of public speaking. She’s competes competitively at sports, is married, travels a great deal ,all on Istagram) and has a happy life. Life would very possibly have turned out the same whether she was pretty or not but the confidence she gained from being popular certainly helped and I know her personally so can say that with certainty.

People don’t want to think looks help but they do.
People want to say that being single is not an issue but if you are not single by choice, it is.

I think the issues are complex.

I was fairly pretty in my younger days, and did receive a good share of attention.
I worked in a male environment, and often the only woman at meetings or social events.
Leary drunks would often target me in bars- I remember waiting in the departure lounge at my local airport for an early morning flight to London for work. It was mostly men in suits catching the flight, I too was wearing business attire.
I remember looking up from what I was reading, there were 20 or so men staring at me. Everytime I crossed or uncrossed my legs I could see the eyes on me.
It was not pleasant, I felt very uncomfortable- and this scene was repeated many many times.

I am in my 60s now, and seem to have joined the invisible older woman club.

And it is liberating, exhilarating, I love the fact that most men gaze straight past me.
I don't miss the objectification or attention in public one bit.

@Cookiecrumblane this thread is a mountain of hypocrisy and virtue signalling, completely ridiculous. Of course, beautiful women tend to have a smoother ride in our society! The outcome can only be what they make of it but denying that it's starting with an advantage is silly.

Yes it will always be like this while people like you completely overlook all the troubles this woman has and concentrate solely on her looks.

You ARE the problem OP

I agree.

I have two children. One is clever - really clever and kind, intelligent, sporty, great conversationalist, has a good sense of humour, makes a big effort to include everyone and puts themselves out there to mix. Very few good friends if any.

The other is empathetic, smart but not as clever as their sibling, fun and makes little effort. Surrounded by friends and popular in school with classmates and teachers alike, and chosen as the lead in school productions etc.

One is average looking and one is pretty......

Whether we like it or not, people are books judged by their covers.

This is true. I am white, short, two stone overweight and will never tan. I even choose holidays abroad where I am less likely to be surrounded by beach ready twenty something year olds playing racket ball. Not because I don't want them to have their beach fit bodies but because I don't want to feel unattractive.

I think it's very different if you have been beautiful and hated it. How do you know you would have loved being constantly overlooked, passed by, to have feelings for someone just to be told they want you to set them up with your mate, be told by pretty much every guy that you're perfect for them but that they want to find someone 'just like you' but not 'you' obviously. How do you know how you would feel to see yourself in photos, the fat, dumpy friend surrounded by five tall, athletic beauties? How do you know you'd have preferred to leave every single night out alone, with no numbers, no attention, whilst your friends are beating the men off with sticks whilst already having a perfectly lovely husband or boyfriend at home.

Well, don't go clubbing with athletic beauties then! I'm not bad looking but I wouldn't go out with a bunch of stunners if I wanted to pick up blokes.

@Wendycoping you sound unhinged. They're my friends, I'm happy they're beautiful.

360!

@Cookiecrumblane Agreed. Beautiful men and women who pretend that they're the victim in some weird convoluted way are completely unhinged and disconnected from the reality.

The data shows that people who are attractive are more likely to have career success, higher earnings, and have friends and relationships. No one can argue with facts.

Turn that around.

How do you know things would be better? How do you know you wouldn't be miserable about your looks for a different reason (people assuming you're thick, not taking you seriously in your career, not wanting a partnership with you because you're just a trophy).

You can apply all your logic to either scenario. Because no one has it perfect.

Something out a novel lol

They crossed the street to walk closer to her.

I bet Wayne Couzens crossed the road for plenty of women, too

Interested to know what type of job do you think I should do?

She lost it because of a series of mistakes. She fucked up repeatedly. People who fuck up repeatedly are known as fuckups.
Now go pound sand.

Well if that's how you measure Pretty Privilege then let's talk about Intelligence Privilege. Social Capital Privilege. Two Married Parents Privilege. Able Bodied Privilege. Good Speller Privilege. Charm and Personality Privilege. Confidence Privilege. Nice Accent Privilege. The Natural Athletic Privilege that successful sportspeople have that most of us aren't blessed with, meaning that they were always picked first to be on the school team and I never was. So what?

A while ago I read an article about white privilege as seen from a black perspective. Twenty years ago, a young black man might have said 'Can you imagine how it feels, having the same capability and the same qualifications as everyone else on the interview panel but not getting the job and always wondering if it's because I am black?'

Whereas this particular young black man did have the job. And he said 'can you imagine how it feels, having to go into work each day always wondering if I didn't actually get my job on merit, but because the employer needed to fill some BAME quota?'

@TwigletsAndRadishes "Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout..."

That's irrelevant to my point, which is that attractive people are immensely advantaged compared to unattractive people. People trying to flip that around to argue that actually, it's better to be ugly, are completely disconnected from the real world.

If it's true that life is better if you're ugly, then why is it the case that the majority of people, both men and women, try to look presentable and the best version of themselves? How many men and women intentionally make themselves appear more ugly?

I don't think anyone is saying "it's better to be ugly". For one thing, attractiveness is subjective.

But what they are saying is to not compare yourself to other people. And if you're going to, it can't be solely on whether or not you or they are attractive and the impact that has/will have on your life.

For example, I have a great job, I own a home in a lovely area, I have a wonderful husband and a beautiful daughter (who I think one day people will say has pretty privilege...). Good friends, great family.

Would I be happier if I were more attractive? Would I be more successful? Who knows. It could be a worse scenario. I work in a very analytical position, where I need to be taken seriously. Would I be? Would my lovely husband have actually been attracted to me if I looked different?

None of it matters if you're happy with your life. And that happiness isn't solely based on how attractive you are.

THAT is what people are saying.

Not tooting my own horn but I'm pretty, like Kim k pretty and you're right there is such thing as pretty privilege, getting a lot of things free and men helping you ect however I get a lot of hate, I've had so many issues with neighbours or other women and creepy men. So it's not all that great I know if I didn't look the way I do I wouldn't have so much bother from others.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos I don't think anyone is saying "it's better to be ugly". For one thing, attractiveness is subjective.

Actually, that is what people have been saying. Which is why it's a good idea to read the thread before making such a blanket statement.

Example 1: "Now I'm much older and larger, I am invisible to those kinds of men. It's glorious. I can walk through the world without them noticing me or hassling me, and thank fuck for that."

Example 2: "I am in my 60s now, and seem to have joined the invisible older woman club. And it is liberating, exhilarating, I love the fact that most men gaze straight past me. I don't miss the objectification or attention in public one bit."

And there are other examples beyond that.

Would I be happier if I were more attractive? Would I be more successful? Who knows.

Statistically, the evidence shows that the answer to both questions would be "yes."

So you think being in one's sixties and being older and larger are synonomys for "ugly?" 🤔

At any rate, those are people saying how they feel. They aren't statements of belief about what is better in general.

Firstly you have made many many assumptions . Secondly I have never dated anyone younger than me but i will try to explain the situation. I was 18 and she was 24. She chose me first. She asked me out. I like women who are self assertive and so I thought that we might be able to form a life together. She knew before she asked me out that I wasn't into one night stands and just wanted long term relationships. She was a PhD student at the same university. Makeup: To go literally across a road to the corner shop is a 30 second walk, yet it would take her 30 minutes to get ready even though she was fully dresse and already had lippy and a bit of foundation on. Humour... I am unfortunately quite funny as it was the only way for my bullies to stop punching me, chineese burns, stabbing me with compasses for 2 hrs every day. but I know that humour is subjective and that this doesn't suit everyone. However in the 6 ish weeks we dated she didn't laugh at anything. Nothing on the tele, nothing or anyone in real life. I asked her if she found things funny and her answer was 'rarely'. Wanting to go out every single night when you are both students is not sustainable, I completely agree that going to a night club twice a week is fine , which is as much as i could afford and whilst being a student you do actually have to do course work and revision. When we would get to the club at 10 he would spend at least 1 and a half hours redoing her make up and would get a bit of a hump if she didnt get someone try to hit on her. Teenager beaviour:
She was naturally very beautiful but couldn't see it in herself and needed external validation. Every day she would ask my housemates if she looked beautiful at least twice a day. She asked me 'why don't you get jealous when boys hit on me?' I said that I couldn't be jealous because of course they are going to hit on you look at you. "Yeah but don't you worry?" I responded with... if you were taking them into the toilets or started kissing them then I'd be worried. At which point she called me a f ING pussy and threw herself on the floor as a child wood do.
I left my own bedroom and slept downstairs. The breakup and retaliation: She said that if I wasn't getting angry that she went off and danced without me then I wasn't a man. Ten minutes later I broke up with her saying that I don't want to feel like I have to pretend to be angry because you want me to be. I said that isn't right. You shouldn't be seeking that kind of attention. Following day she spread a rumour that I was gay and couslnt get it up for her.. which I couldn't give 2 stuffs about. There were then a few other rumours which she started and then the final straw that I had a rape conviction. I phoned the police... who to begin with being 1995 and me a man just told me to get over it and there was no record. I then had to spend 2 years trying to avoid her because if she saw me she'd start yelling at me. I don't know if that's enough detail or not but I can only tell you how It was for me. Perhaps I made it sound worse than it was, but I really do have a very good memory and I do think the above is an honest account. There will obviously be bits In that relationship where I wasn't the angel, I do remember for example she had asked me to get some lemonade as me and my housemates were going to Tesco, and I completely forgot, but I apologised and she never brought it or anything else.real.up in an argument.. only ever the desire for me to be angry or jealous.