To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

I disagree with this policy but even if you don’t I can’t see how anyone thinks it’s right to do this to families who already have children enrolled at their schools. It should start come into effect for children starting in September next year so that parents can make a fully informed choice instead of having it pulled out from under them.

All the teachers for all the children in school do exist.

There will be a proportionate movement of teachers from private to state schools following the pupils to balance things out.

If only it all worked as neatly as that

How would the introduction of VAT make the social divide wider?

My worry is that in those schools that don’t have spaces they will increase class sizes

My dc is at a private school but we live in the catchment for three ofsted outstanding schools. I think that the subsequent bump in our house price from increased demand will offset the additional cost of the VAT rise so I'm happy either way. 

Of course there won’t. If a few kids leave each private school year group the teachers aren’t going to follow. If they wanted to work in the state sector they’d do that already. Some aren’t even able to because they’re not qualified.

It just means the private school classes now have 15 kids in rather than 18 and the state school classes now have an extra 3.. Great policy

The parents have enough time to make a fully informed decision whether to budget for the VAT increase or enrol their children into state schools.

It's no different from these private institutions raising their own fees. Perhaps the introduction of VAT will make them think twice before asking for more money from parents.

This policy will benefit society as a whole.

Perhaps OP the Labour government are being a bit more grown up about it and recognising that a number of things need to happen and consideration needs to be given to the pupils and schools this will affect.

Parents need to give at least one terms notice, in the case of some years 2 terms. They also need to find a school place if they are moving their children. The schools need to continue to look at mitigating the effect on fees.

Councils and state schools may/will also need to plan. In some cases this could see schools going under so an influx of pupils, especially in primary.

Whilst people like the OP will be thrilled that private schools will have to pay more in tax they might be very disappointed to see the zero effect it has on state school provision. In some cases it will be negative. Believe me those sharp elbowed private school parents will move into areas of good state schools, tutor their children, give them every advantage they can and the money they will have saved will be more than sufficient to fund this. Oh and those kids may then well take that uni place that your child might have qualified for.

In a few years time I'm expecting to see state schools that are in effect enclaves for the middle class who part fund them with school donations. The education gap sadly wider than ever before.

It will force closure of some private schools inevitably. The Times reported that 50% of private schools have 270 pupils or less which makes them financially vulnerable and precarious. Labour will let them fail. The teachers there will find employment in the state sector. The buildings may become state schools (some have indicated).
It's all for the greater good imo.

I do think some private school parents are deluded in their anger towards what they perceive as the “better” state schools. These schools are still very different to private they still have to take in all children in their area, they can’t easily expel difficult children and are suffering with the teacher retention crisis. Plus they don’t get the contextual offers. So arguably get the worst of all worlds.

Nope. There is a surplus of places country wide. There’s not a surplus in ‘outstanding’ schools but plenty in others. In our city 4 out of 7 have places and class sizes are shrinking.

anyway this is a less of a should there be VAT question - yes IMHO - and more of a they’re doing it, so let’s get on with it.

many State schools are already in deficit with very difficult spending decisions needing to be made
with each child joining school attracting £5,000 and schools being responsible for the first £6,000 cost of support for any child with additional or special needs it isn’t hard to see how the transfer from private school to state school of any such children could add to that deficit- clearly an unintended consequence of labour’s plan

THIS.
our widely admired secondary is ‘good’ not outstanding and takes all kids BUT they manage all the children well. I think it’s a fantastic school, with great results for a COMPREHENSIVE but I suspect most private parents would turn their nose up. But the reality is - a non selective state school isn’t going to have the exams results on paper that a selective private does.
That doesn’t mean though, that it can’t provide a rich educational experience suited to each child.

What do you mean “the teachers aren’t going to follow”? You really think private schools will just keep on paying the wages for 6,500 more teachers than they need?

Dont be dense. If your predicted stampede of slightly not rich enough to pay VAT pupils into state school happens, private schools will make teachers redundant and the state schools will then be the only gig in town hiring as that is where the pupils have gone.

It just means the private school classes now have 15 kids in rather than 18

On a school level, 5 sets of Yr6 math classes each being down 3 students, equals one entire set. Cut the sets from 5 to 4, and let go a teacher in that subject, rinse and repeat on every subject.

private schools are businesses, they aren’t going to keep on excess teachers.

But those schools are just glorified state schools already. They're not exactly contributing to social divide, they're just offering an alternative choice to often SEN students whose parents are willing to pay for the extra support they require.

In comparison, my dd's school has over 800 students and costs £40k a year. We're going to be fine. Nothing about the school is going to change, there is no prediction that we are going to see a drastic drop in enrollment.

You’ve oversimplified the maths. Most state schools that are in deficit are in deficit because they have too few pupils. They are funded in a £x per pupil basis by an annual changing government formula. Most of the schools costs are fixed and inelastic so more pupils mean they can reach an economy of scale where they won’t be in deficit but start having a bit of surplus to increase the educational offerings.

Stop with the SEN stuff, SEN kids are far more likely to be in a state school than a private school than kids with no SEN. Private schools are not some sort of “only option for those poor SEN kids”,

You’re not going to have 3 kids leaving out of each class/set. Nowhere near than number is predicted.

and private schools aren’t business as such, they don’t distribute their profits. They reinvest them in the school. Private school parents won’t put up with larger class sizes.

I have no skin in the game. Mine will have left. But I can see this isn’t going to play out the way some think it will. It’s just a crowd pleaser.

Why? You read it on here every single day. If there is a private school thread there is a 50/50 chance it is the mother of a child with SEN wondering if it's worthwhile scraping together the fees so her child can attend the nice little quiet local private school with tiny class sizes because she feels it might be the best enviroment for her child to thrive in.

Because parents like me don't give a fuck. My daughter would be attending private school whether the VAT was 100%. There is no question about it.

January is a reasonable amount of notice.

The ugly jealous lefties 🤢

The issue for many regional (smaller) private schools, who aren't in the Harrow/Eton type bubble many assume them to be in, is a 20% drop in pupil numbers may make them unviable.

In that case, even if remaining parents could afford the increase, the school would close & the state system would be taking in far more than those initial 20%.

I am looking forward to the point, when data in the medium term on the full range of impact caused by this policy is available.

Many of the vocal advocates for this policy, will have some humble-pie to swallow.

Just a few points aside from the aforementioned closure of regional private schools (which by itself could end up costing more than will be raised):

VAT increase will cost state funded CEA allowance an additional £16million.

Private schools will be able to immediately submit VAT rebate reclaims, for past expenditure on cost and capital projects. For capital projects such as buildings this VAT liability could cost the Government hundreds of millions, as they can potentially go back 7/8 years depending on the capital expenditure.

VAT can subsequently be reclaimed on future vatable expenses, (up to 40% of typical school operational costs). This has to be deducted from any amount raised.

Any child who moves will then be subsidised by the taxpayer, who currently benefits from their pupil allocation for children who cannot afford private. This will cost money.

An ill thought out policy, which Labour knew would appeal to a wide ranging group of people, who love the idea that someone who has something they don't is paying more for it - but ultimately aren't experienced enough to understand the potential negative fiscal impact.

The Labour minister for education was on the radio before the election, and when asked how many pupils the free breakfast club would affect, she did not have the number. That says everything you need to know.

I voted YABU. I needed a year to get stuff straight. Find new school for DC and also re-arrange my work life.

I’m working on trying not to feel like I failed because I couldn’t afford the extra 20%. I’m focusing on the positives - from January I won’t need to work as a midwife anymore. That will be good for my family life, good for me.

Will I feel any guilt about the taxpayers who paid for my training or the staffing crisis we face in maternity? No. Not by January.

Except that now you will be contributing £640k per year to state education.