To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

I'm sure state schools will make room for clever ex private kids with glowing school references. I don't think not enough places is the issue now. It will be down the line in a few years, when the state schools haven't improved and parents who would have considered private education can't afford it.

Have you travelled 1st? it’s really not worth the money, yes even on Emirates or BA .
Well, I don’t think it’s worth my money anyway.
The ‘comfort’ level really isn’t that much better than business class - there’s only so much you can do to make a London to LA flight less tedious.
And given that it ain’t that much better than business on comfort, it’s the other stuff that people like - whisked through security, separate lounges etc basically all the stuff that keeps them away from the hoi polloi and makes them feel a bit special- being in the same class as perhaps a minor royal or well known actor - basically the same shit private school parents are after…

Both are valid concerns but the fundamental issue here is that if there is no money to be made by the government by adding VAT on school fees then what is the point in doing so?

Firstly there is 0% chance that society will be any closer to equal. There are far far bigger issues to address in attempting this and this also requires the government to admit we need to level up to achieve it, not down.
As for the second point, those with SEN/unable to cope in the state sector are going to be most affected together with the poorer families on outskirts of catchment. The middle classes will make calculated decisions to move at the correct point and ensure their children get the best state education possible with the necessary extras. The rich will continue to pay and benefit most as the wealthiest private schools will have the highest VAT on capital expenditure to reclaim - so much for trying to remove privilege

The state system needs a huge amount of investment, there is absolutely no denying it. But this needs a solid source of funding, not some shaky predictions which the authors themselves have already admitted are overestimated. When the government loses money, smaller privates have closed with associated job losses and all the other unintended consequences have come into effect (such as reduction in income tax from parents dropping hours), where do we go? We can't undo the changes and get the money back

I have to admit I have lurked on these threads for some time, and i have resisted commenting as they have become increasingly emotive. However, I think it is important to contextualise the issue within the wider situation of tax and particularly VAT in the uk. The government has essentially three mechanisms for raising money:
Taxing people and businesses
Growing the economy (and therefore gaining a greater tax take)
Borrowing
Within the tax mix we have income taxes and VAT. VAT is a sales tax and is charged on the vast majority of goods and services. It is not a ‘luxury tax’ and never has been. For the interested there is a list of exemptions and reduced rates here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services
Some would argue that all VAT should be scrapped and we should rely solely on income and wealth taxes. This is partly because it can be seen as ‘paying twice’ & partly because lower income individuals pay a greater proportion of their incomes on VAT. Many of life’s essentials (adult clothes, furnishing, white goods, household repairs etc.) incur VAT. Removing all VAT would however be wildly politically unpopular because of the rises in other taxes that would be necessary to compensate for it.
Given that VAT is here to stay, people must decide whether private school fees should remain exempt (in the context of the other goods and services that are not). If added some families, who are at the margins of affordability, will have to make the decision to move their children to state schools. Inarguably this may be difficult for some of those families. However, it needs to be born in mind that for the vast, vast majority of families in the uk private school is not an option. Most of us regardless of the individual needs of our children (including send needs) and the quality of the local schools available have to make the best of state education. There is no option of private for the majority of us. This policy will make private unaffordable for a fraction more. However, most existing users will continue and although no one can be sure, it is likely that the policy will produce a net gain in tax take. People are dismissive of the likely amount of tax gained, but I would welcome it. Even a fractional additional teaching appointment at my child’s comprehensive school would be helpful. Additional pupils can also be accommodated. I do not expect them to magically raise standards and solve problems (in fact find this idea a bit strange/almost insulting), but neither would they cause overcrowding or be detrimental. In recent years, the school has accepted significant numbers from a local (state) school closing and newly arrived refugees. The new arrivals were managed and welcomed, as would children moving from a private school. There are some local pockets in the uk where additional local measures may need to be put in place (temporary classrooms, bulge years etc.), but nationally there are surplus places as has been stated previously.
On balance, I support the policy because the negative impact on some families needs to be seen in the wider context of the impact of VAT on all income levels and the likely small (but still helpful) increase in tax take. Nobody should be gleeful about a child having to move school for whatever the reason, be it private school becoming unaffordable, a house move or other changes of circumstances. Neither should we deny it can be stressful to move schools for whatever reason. However, it can and has to be managed by many, many children every year.
VAT makes things less affordable and therefore makes things more difficult for some families. That is the impact of a sales taxes. VAT impacts a struggling single parent who needs to replace a broken washing machine and now potentially a family with a middle income who is just about managing to pay private school fees. I don’t see how it is fair to maintain an exemption for private school fees (a service bought overwhelming, although not exclusively, by those with higher incomes and for which the alternative of state schools is available) whilst VAT is maintained on many essentials that must be purchased by all (including those on low incomes). This does not mean that I am not empathetic to the impact this will have on some families, simply that all tax has some negative impacts and I do not think it is equitable to maintain this exemption for this particular service.

it will be interesting to see if that other private education - that of University- is included. If it is, all the Labour supporters who have children will be paying for it. If it isn’t, I suspect a legal battle will ensue. What is private education and what isn’t?

‘I'm sure state schools will make room for clever ex private kids with glowing school references.’

Do you know how state schools work? They don’t need ‘glowing references’ - ALL kids getting. It what the private parents are so scared of, their speshal children mixing with everyone else. Clever or average…

There you go again telling me why I chose to send my DC to private school…and you are wrong once again. Like many professional
working women I chose a private prep for my DC due to the excellent wrap around care and extra curriculars on offer because I didn’t have the time to ferry them from one activity to another. I was too busy working, developing my career and paying shit loads of tax in the process.

Dream on.

None in the north, though I think there might be some in the middle of the UK in Yorkshire

Yes, as a professional woman myself ( also paying ‘shit loads of tax’ for what it’s worth, Incan understand the temptation of boarding school, and of offloading as much of the parenting as possible - I’m assuming you mean boarding? Because although my kids do after school activities til 5ish then walk home,they still have evening stuff to do - that we parents are involved in.

what the private parents are so scared of, their speshal children mixing with everyone else. Clever or average…

‘Speshal’ eh? Are you as spiteful as this in real life?

You do seem to think your opinions represent the majority of people don’t you?

First class travel- many people use it for a number of reasons, they can afford to, they want better food, they need to sleep over night as they are working the next day - the list goes on . Lots of businesses pay for it, lots of Amex card holders get points to use for it, doesn’t mean the person themselves are paying but if they can and do then that’s up to them.

As for, ‘whisking through security’ it’s £5 and anyone can do this. Some people would question why they would you queue for the sake of £5? There time might be spent better through the other side shopping or eating. It’s included in business and first class travel.

Separate lounges- if we aren’t flying business ( where they’re included) , we always book them as they save us lots of money . We end up paying way more to eat and drink in the airport than we do when we pay and use the lounges. Plus our Amex gives us a great discount on them.

You seem to assume people wander around feeling superior and smug yet in reality I think very few do and they just get on with their lives rather than feeling bitter and resentful like you do OP. Maybe you should concentrate on your life a little more than anyone else’s and see if it improves? Therapy might help you to take your anger away.

You assume private school parents choose the school to quote you ‘keeps them away from the hoi polloi and makes them feel a bit special’. Or perhaps OP - they need the wrap around as their hours of work require it; they want their children to have access to extra curricular activities that they can’t take them to due to their working pattern; they have the money and don’t want to use state resources when they don’t need to. The list could go on OP. But you carry on in your own bigoted way- you come across uneducated (this is putting it politely as there’s a much better word to use) and your posts are embarrassing .

No, my DC did not board. They went to school 8 - 6 i.e. four hours extra to my catchment state primary that offered no wrap around care whatsoever. And how dare you say I was offloading parenting, I have never done that. Is that what you say to all state schools parents who use a childminder or an after school club? The big difference is that my DC could have individual music lessons, tennis lessons, dance lessons etc all at their school so that the evenings and weekends were reserved for family time. That is not offloading parenting.

I had interpreted “wraparound care and extracurriculars” as a day school with the option to extend to a longer day. Boarding is usually described rather differently (and is rare for a prep school these days, most prep schools are day schools).

it’s the other stuff that people like - whisked through security, separate lounges etc basically all the stuff that keeps them away from the hoi polloi and makes them feel a bit special- being in the same class as perhaps a minor royal or well known actor - basically the same shit private school parents are after…

Ah shame. You have ended your thread with the same ignorant and stereotypical views and prejudices as you started with. You have learnt nothing! Better luck on the next bitter thread you start or join on this topic ;-)

Imagine starting a thread on a decision that’s been made and won’t affect you directly at all!

Anyway I wish all the kids and parents who are going to be disrupted by the change well. Whenever it happens. I don’t take joy in any family struggling with an unwelcome change, however ‘privileged’ they may be.

And OP. I wish you well too. Remember what I said about true happiness not lying in schadenfreude.

OP - it’s hoi polloi, not the hoi polloi - hoi being the definite article. It’s like saying chai tea or naan bread.

I went to a comp so don’t worry - I didn’t get that knowledge from some outrageous fee paying school. I got it from Jilly Cooper.

*special

The fact that you were explicitly clear that your DC are at a private prep specifically for wraparound and she jumped to the conclusion they board when very few prep schools even offer boarding shows just how ignorant the OP is about education. The more she continues to post and demonstrate her opinions, the more we can safely assume the majority of her claims are utter nonsense

The more you post the more you upturn your own argument. My kids are in a shabby, small wonderful private due to unmet needs in state. I have absolutely no idea what it is like to fly business let alone first class. Your sweeping generalized ideas about what private parents want and why we use private are laughable

She simply hasn’t bothered reading about the myriad reasons people choose private. Of course some will be snobs and it will be about networking. But there are so many other reasons people have.

But she chooses to be blinded by prejudice. Or maybe she doesn’t comprehend the words being written. Who knows by this stage.