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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Disorder in Leeds

709 replies

OrangeFurever · 18/07/2024 21:53

Anyone watching the public disorder in Leeds? Bloody disgusting behaviour. Animals. AIBU to wish police had so many more resources to bring consequences to these absolute excuses for humanity?

OP posts:
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17
willstarttomorrow · 20/07/2024 21:55

Last comment on this thread. The press are reporting that a Roma family had their children removed- the baby having a non accidental injury. In cases of NAI removal is standard IF there is no way to make children safe whilst assessment is ongoing.

The fact the family is reported to be Roma is irrelevant in this case. I have worked with several Roma families who have settled here and they are kind, caring, good parents and intergrated in their communities. There is a huge current if racism running through this thread.

I have reason to go to central Europe and Balkan countries several times a year. The racism against Roma people is horrific. Many live in ghettos with no proper utilities. Because of my skin tone people 'joke' to be careful as people may think I am Roma.

Just asking, as there is a huge level of racism displayed here, if a few of you can stop and think before Roma = bad.

Biggleslefae · 20/07/2024 22:00

inamarina · 20/07/2024 19:11

But why move to another country then, if you don’t trust their authority figures, don’t accept their rules and want to live your life according to your own traditions?

You are right, our way of life is possible because of our norms & laws, our culture. People who want to benefit from it must also accept the norms, laws & culture that make it possible.
Being as charitable as possible I suppose we can say that we all have impulses to revert to they way we were brought up and as a host country we should place more emphasis on insisting people integrate?

willstarttomorrow · 20/07/2024 22:24

Definitely last post-
I work in a predominantly white working class area. One estate has a number of 4-5 bedroom homes. It is as impoverished as Harehills. There have been similar disruptions in the past but it has not made national news. There are 'community leaders' - who have worked within the community for several years to deliver youth services etc and are respected by young and old, including church ministers. All work closely with the police to try and tackle gang violence (which is mainly child exploitation- crimimal and sexual) The racism within this thread because Harehills is a 'Brown/Black/Roma area is shocking.

ofVeracity · 20/07/2024 22:33

willstarttomorrow · 20/07/2024 21:55

Last comment on this thread. The press are reporting that a Roma family had their children removed- the baby having a non accidental injury. In cases of NAI removal is standard IF there is no way to make children safe whilst assessment is ongoing.

The fact the family is reported to be Roma is irrelevant in this case. I have worked with several Roma families who have settled here and they are kind, caring, good parents and intergrated in their communities. There is a huge current if racism running through this thread.

I have reason to go to central Europe and Balkan countries several times a year. The racism against Roma people is horrific. Many live in ghettos with no proper utilities. Because of my skin tone people 'joke' to be careful as people may think I am Roma.

Just asking, as there is a huge level of racism displayed here, if a few of you can stop and think before Roma = bad.

Perhaps before attempting to educate people on prejudice, you should address some of the arrogant prejudice and insults in your own posts.

Read them back and think on it, perhaps it does not even register with you.

CPLawyer · 20/07/2024 22:45

willstarttomorrow · 20/07/2024 19:15

@ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo. I think you have totally misunderstood my post. My colleagues have frequently removed children and would have had to have a court order or police order to do so. I am well aware of Star Hobson (in a neighboring LA) and all other high profile cases where CSWS have failed. I live in fear of letting children down this way. Since the last government were in power our team of 11 social workers has been cut to 6 and the area we cover expanded to 4x the size. We are an outstanding authority for child protection but we are running on fumes.

Supporting services have been cut to the bone, same with the police and health visting etc. The majority of the work we do is working with family's to prevent it getting to this stage. Social workers, the police, schools and health visitors etc mostly mostly really successfully with a good outcome despite all of the above.

We also have now have to do a lot of work around CCE and CSE as there are no other agencies to take this on. On top of this, there are no placemets for children who come into care so I can spend several hours a day filling in placement requests then sitting with a child/ren in McDonald's until late at night every few days as they bounce between carers. All whilst having to do the day-to-day referral stuff. It is the same for all other agencies.

I work in the field and can say that many look to Leeds as setting the bar for practice with a lot of things 😅 I know that the legal team at Leeds is one of the most experienced I know and it has a good reputation all round. However, one thing I will say is that on the ground there isn't enough understanding of cultural norms and practices. I have seen many a times the demonisation of others cultural norms but also the turning a blind eye and giving leniency to others. Can't comment on this particular case as I have zero knowledge of it but I do know of others where there for example a middle class mum who worked in the healthcare field left her baby unsupervised on a sofa to be pounced on by the family dog. The baby fell off the sofa and fractured their skull. It was ruled an accident and the child returned home shortly after.

Obeseandashamed · 20/07/2024 22:49

I have seen across social media that the far right is protesting in Leeds tomorrow in a bid to stand against 'two tier policing'. This was never a race issue but it has now become one thanks to all those who jumped to conclusions and fuelled racism.

ofVeracity · 21/07/2024 00:21

CPLawyer · 20/07/2024 22:45

I work in the field and can say that many look to Leeds as setting the bar for practice with a lot of things 😅 I know that the legal team at Leeds is one of the most experienced I know and it has a good reputation all round. However, one thing I will say is that on the ground there isn't enough understanding of cultural norms and practices. I have seen many a times the demonisation of others cultural norms but also the turning a blind eye and giving leniency to others. Can't comment on this particular case as I have zero knowledge of it but I do know of others where there for example a middle class mum who worked in the healthcare field left her baby unsupervised on a sofa to be pounced on by the family dog. The baby fell off the sofa and fractured their skull. It was ruled an accident and the child returned home shortly after.

Did she go to work after leaving her baby on the sofa or perhaps just nip into the other room? Of course details matter if you want to make balanced comparisons, unless you just wish to demonise middle class mums.

As far as cultural norms, presumably no problem if they do not breach UK law. For instance sexual discrimination is a cultural norm for some, should that be accepted here as a retrograde step after all the efforts over many years of women fighting for equality?

Windchiming · 21/07/2024 01:13

LuluBlakey1 · 18/07/2024 23:16

No- they are showing black, asian and middle-eastern people on the whole and the ones involved in the actions are young and male, lots of encouragement in foreign languages being screamed and shouted- don't know what- and women standing around in the midst of it but mainly taking photos and some smiling/laughing.

Why should they not be shown? Do they deserve special identity protection?

Windchiming · 21/07/2024 01:26

Runbunny · 18/07/2024 23:25

That might have led to some anger today (see distrust of authority) but it's not what led to an environment where this can happen.

Edited

No. In this case authorities were doing the right thing. Safeguarding children. These people don't want to follow rules and they are angry that they or their buddies had to deal with the consequences.

LuluBlakey1 · 21/07/2024 06:31

Windchiming · 21/07/2024 01:13

Why should they not be shown? Do they deserve special identity protection?

I am not suggesting that, just describing what the photos published in the DM showed.

TERFCat · 21/07/2024 06:44

Owen Jones has posted an interview with Mothin Ali if anyone's interested.

ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo · 21/07/2024 07:12

CPLawyer · 20/07/2024 22:45

I work in the field and can say that many look to Leeds as setting the bar for practice with a lot of things 😅 I know that the legal team at Leeds is one of the most experienced I know and it has a good reputation all round. However, one thing I will say is that on the ground there isn't enough understanding of cultural norms and practices. I have seen many a times the demonisation of others cultural norms but also the turning a blind eye and giving leniency to others. Can't comment on this particular case as I have zero knowledge of it but I do know of others where there for example a middle class mum who worked in the healthcare field left her baby unsupervised on a sofa to be pounced on by the family dog. The baby fell off the sofa and fractured their skull. It was ruled an accident and the child returned home shortly after.

From what I am hearing the child didn’t fracture their skull the day of the riots. That’s what started SS involvement. But it might not the whole story.

I also saw a report that said that incident happened a while ago, then this has happened. We are, quite rightly, unlikely to know the ins and outs. Just it’s difficult to compare 2 situations.

If both situations are investigated, then not having the same outcome doesn’t mean it’s not fair or that there’s bias in it.

and I think, reading the thread, living nearish by and having family in that area the whole problem is ‘we need to understand culture norms’ because to a lot of people what that’s saying is that there’s rules for some people and not others, depending on wether it’s a cultural norm or not.

As op said, there’s another protest. I have seen mention of it but can’t say it’s definitely right wing organisers. But the point of it is that people feel there’s a two tier system. To be clear, if the demonstrate and cause damage and harm to the area then they are also shit heads, like the people from Thursday night. But it will be interesting to see the police reaction.

But we have one side claiming their children were taken because of racism and the other that feels that there’s. Two tier system. And then, the shit heads on either side that will use the issue to cause chaos.

But everyone is feeling like there’s unfair treatment. It’s a mess.

Seymour5 · 21/07/2024 07:41

@ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo I think the perception of unfairness is a good point. ‘Cultural norms’ are fine as long as they don’t impact on others or are seen as excuses for unacceptable behaviour.

marshmallowmix · 21/07/2024 07:44

Windchiming · 21/07/2024 01:26

No. In this case authorities were doing the right thing. Safeguarding children. These people don't want to follow rules and they are angry that they or their buddies had to deal with the consequences.

Exactly ! A baby had serious head injuries hence SS intervention and removal of the remaining children from the household.

They were planning to leave yesterday to go to Romania with the children to evade SS hence what we saw on Thursday police had to go in and get them for safety and to stop them doing a runner.

Family didn’t like this/don’t like authority so this all kicked off …pics of him drunk all over social media.

Thanks to social media so many photos out there of those setting fire to the bus, burning stuff etc and inciting trouble so it should be easy to round them up !

OlgaBracley · 21/07/2024 08:09

TERFCat · 21/07/2024 06:44

Owen Jones has posted an interview with Mothin Ali if anyone's interested.

No.

ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo · 21/07/2024 08:31

TERFCat · 21/07/2024 06:44

Owen Jones has posted an interview with Mothin Ali if anyone's interested.

I have actually watched it, despite my hatred of Own jones.

I found it quite interesting. but not surprising.

What I did note was that it was good that he was there on the ground. But given that he arrived at 6.30pm and the disorder carried on into the night. So people didn’t listen to ‘community leaders’.

Oddly he didn’t mention the bus. He said he arrived and the car was overturned. Describes the crowd as very anger, then angry but settled then accuses other groups of coming in from outside the community from right wing sources and setting it off again. Will be interesting to see where the people live, that have been arrested.

It’s interesting that he refutes the there’s tension between communities there and that the people who live there are upset about the lack of opportunity. Which is understandable. But there is tension between communities.

But again saying things like ‘they don’t have opportunities so have a lot of time on their hands’ is just trying to absolve people of responsibility. I assume he means they don’t have jobs. I can’t work out why the thinking is ‘they don’t have jobs and so become a nightmare for the local community’ rather than ‘people who becomes nightmares for their local communities also tend not to work’.

Money and schemes have been ploughed into that area for decades, to try and improve it and there’s a large minority that don’t want it. Why does ‘having too much time on their hands’ become an excuse for anti social behaviour?

It’s also quite odd because if you look at figures for the area, the vast majority are employed. I don’t know wether that stat comes from HMRC or just surveys using a small number of locals and extrapolating.

And I don’t see how any of this is an excuse for trying to stop neglected children from being removed, acting in threatening ways to social services and police. Tipping up police cars, setting fire to buses etc

inamarina · 21/07/2024 08:31

Is the baby actually still in hospital? I remember reading it somewhere.
People are also saying the family wanted to go to Romania with their remaining children - does that mean they’d leave the baby here?

TERFCat · 21/07/2024 08:38

I don't think we should speculate on the baby or other kids in the family. They deserve their privacy.

inamarina · 21/07/2024 08:45

ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo · 21/07/2024 08:31

I have actually watched it, despite my hatred of Own jones.

I found it quite interesting. but not surprising.

What I did note was that it was good that he was there on the ground. But given that he arrived at 6.30pm and the disorder carried on into the night. So people didn’t listen to ‘community leaders’.

Oddly he didn’t mention the bus. He said he arrived and the car was overturned. Describes the crowd as very anger, then angry but settled then accuses other groups of coming in from outside the community from right wing sources and setting it off again. Will be interesting to see where the people live, that have been arrested.

It’s interesting that he refutes the there’s tension between communities there and that the people who live there are upset about the lack of opportunity. Which is understandable. But there is tension between communities.

But again saying things like ‘they don’t have opportunities so have a lot of time on their hands’ is just trying to absolve people of responsibility. I assume he means they don’t have jobs. I can’t work out why the thinking is ‘they don’t have jobs and so become a nightmare for the local community’ rather than ‘people who becomes nightmares for their local communities also tend not to work’.

Money and schemes have been ploughed into that area for decades, to try and improve it and there’s a large minority that don’t want it. Why does ‘having too much time on their hands’ become an excuse for anti social behaviour?

It’s also quite odd because if you look at figures for the area, the vast majority are employed. I don’t know wether that stat comes from HMRC or just surveys using a small number of locals and extrapolating.

And I don’t see how any of this is an excuse for trying to stop neglected children from being removed, acting in threatening ways to social services and police. Tipping up police cars, setting fire to buses etc

I can’t work out why the thinking is ‘they don’t have jobs and so become a nightmare for the local community’ rather than ‘people who becomes nightmares for their local communities also tend not to work’.

Exactly. Just look at the pictures of the young (and not so young) men trying to set the bus on fire.
Destructive, no respect for others’ property, and at the same time not particularly bright, since they aren’t even trying to disguise their identities while being filmed.
Or is it because they’re actually proud of what they’re doing?
Not exactly dream employees in any case.

lollipoprainbow · 21/07/2024 08:46

TERFCat · 21/07/2024 08:38

I don't think we should speculate on the baby or other kids in the family. They deserve their privacy.

Bit late for that

Bunnycat101 · 21/07/2024 09:59

Social services don’t take 4 children away for shits and giggles- arguably they aren’t able to intervene until things are very bad indeed. I thought the statement from the council was quite appeasing in tone as well. They should be standing up for their social workers and if they’re not, there will be fear of intervening in the future and more children will go under the radar.

Did they really think rioting and aggression was the route to showing they were responsible parents to social services? The journalists are asking about how they are feeling, the pain they are suffering rather than asking why the kids were taken away in the first place.

OneBadKitty · 21/07/2024 10:19

Anyone who thinks that Mothin Ali is a hero here is seriously deluded. He has openly supported the Hamas atrocities and olds antisemitic views. The Green Party should be ashamed to have him as one of their elected councillors. It is clear that he has been elected by a community who are pushing a different agenda from the general population.

Wetherspoons · 21/07/2024 10:45

OneBadKitty · 21/07/2024 09:27

Interesting discussion.

David Starkey aka he of "so many damn blacks" fame...

lawnseed · 21/07/2024 11:18

The people shouting racism are themselves racist. They are, in fact claiming that people of different races should be treated differently, which is racism. What any sensible person wants is equality and for everyone, regardless of race, to be held to account for breaking the law. It doesn't matter if these people are blue, orange, purple or cerise, they've neglected their children and harm has occured. Now their supporters are tantrumming rioting because they aren't getting their own way. I might try that. See how far it gets me.

I know how it works. I live in an area where a particular demographic get away with crime and anti social behaviour and people are frightened of them. The Law applies to everyone.