To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

I don't wish to make anyone's life more difficult who identifies as transgender. However, I do think the narrative has become like Orwellian doublethink.

By framing everything from the trans perspective, we have put transitioning seem a casual, easily achievable part of life, and ignored the significant challenges that are involved in such a transition. The positives are emphasised against the significant negatives.

I do hope we can find a tolerant way to be inclusive of everyone. But I'm afraid the sociology majors have gone too far into abstraction away from reality.

It would deeply concern me if I had a child who was being influenced in this way.

From what you’ve written I was similar to your daughter - was never really into dolls, well maybe a Sindy but never Barbie, rarely wore dresses unless forced to by my mother, hung out with boys mostly & climbed trees. When I turned 7/8 I decided I wanted to be known as Philip, wore corduroy trousers, a waistcoat & a flat cap. Apparently this phase lasted a good year or so. What did my parents do about it? Nothing. They let me do my own thing & get it out of my system. By the time I became a teenager I was chasing boys, wearing makeup & reading Jackie magazine. I’m now happily married & mother to two boys. When all this gender identification stuff came into the news I asked my parents about this phase & they said that of course they were worried but felt it was best to just let me work through it in my own time. And that is what I did. The result was of my making, no one else’s & I am comfortable in my own skin

I find it really odd that anyone thinks we have any really need for gender in modern society where women/men do can do, wear, love, have sex with whomever and however suits them. I associate gender ideology with stereotyping

What a pleasure this thread is to read. So many thoughtful, sensitive, reflective posts.
We must make sure that these are the voices heard going forward - mothers, parents and responsible adults determined to protect vulnerable children from these regressive ideas.

I was what they called a Tom Boy growing up. I loved gaming, skateboarding, baggy jumpers and used to hide my long hair in a basketball hat. I also did martial arts and got my dan grade. I loved male company as I came from a family full of girls. They did my head in and I struggled to relate to anything they did. I dread to think what they would have done to me today. I would no doubt be confused and psychologically damaged. I still am more of a Tom boy at 44. I’m married with two beautiful boys. I consider myself normal. My boys when they were nursery age used to dress up as Anna and Elsa from Frozen and we had play kitchens at home. My youngest used to love wearing pink. It’s discovering who we are and what we enjoy shouldn’t be jumped on like it is today. No wonder kids have so many mental health issues.

Hard agree. I hated breasts and periods when they appeared. I'd have been tomboyish if I had been allowed, and I am as an adult a probably autistic lesbian. I am exactly the kind of child that could have been transed before I knew any better. It's terrifying.

I agree. We have spent so much time telling our DC they can do what they like and don't have to confirm to gender stereotypes and then this...

My teen boy wants to identify as a girl. I'm so worried about him and I don't know what to do to help him xxx

Yes! I was that little girl who cut her hair short, wore her big brothers outgrown school
uniform as day clothes and wanted to climb trees, go mountain biking and do all the sports. If I had been born in today’s world I likely would have been being told I was born a boy in a girls body, and possibly even set off down the trans route. I’m so glad that it wasn’t around back then, as yes I enjoyed all those non-stereotypical things but I am still female, and proud of being female. As a child o longed to be a boy (identified very much with George from the famous five), but as an adult I am absolutely certain that I was born female and I am female and I have no desire to be male! The reason I wanted to be a boy when I was a child had nothing to do with sex or gender it was simply because I lived in a world where boys got to do lots more fun things and were valued more highly than girls - boys and men had all the power, and I wanted my share.

Your daughter sounds like the young me,
growing up as a tween in the early 80’s. I actually was so desperate to be a boy, I’d cry at night wishing I’d wake up as a boy.

I looked like a boy, played football, rode a boys Raleigh chopper bike. Never be seen dead in a dress. I desperately wanted a He Man castle grey skull. But then I also wanted a Barbie house too.

My mum couldn’t have cared less about any of it. At some point, I can’t remember what age, I just stopped thinking about it. I forgot to be bothered. I still played football as an adult (too old now), I’m not and have never been particularly feminine. But I haven’t once given any thought since those tween/teen days, of wishing I’d been male.

It’s scary where my life could be now, if I’d been born a lot later or with parents with different views. I no more wish I was male now, than I wish I was a cat.

Have just got back from an evening walk, and while out I saw a young woman, shirtless, mastectomy scars, covered in tattoos including a massive noose(!) on her back, asymmetric metallic green hair (latter obviously not permanent but illustrates the complete conformity with a different set of stereotypes). I don’t know her obviously, but she looked really young and it’s just so utterly tragic and heartbreaking even though she probably doesn’t realise it yet. So much harm has been done already. Wonder what she learned about gender at school?

I was born in 1966 and around 4/5 years of age, I decided that I would much rather be a boy so I dressed as a boy, kept my hair short and was absolutely delighted when anyone thought I was male. I've always been sporty too. All I can say is thank God, the gender clinics did not exist then otherwise I would probably have been counselled towards gender re-assignment or at the least, would have received inappropriate advice (I say this because many clinics have been criticised or closed down due to what appears to be an inappropriate agenda or bias towards the patie,nt actually being channelled towards puberty blockers and the like) Of course there may be gender Clinics that are objective and treat patients without any bias but you don't hear about them......

I was allowed to be me which was great and then quite naturally I transitioned into my teens/ womanhood and love being me. My husband always jokes that I have a bit of a "bloke gene"

Whilst I get that you don't need to wear make up, frocks, get your hair done etc. to be a woman, but I do and bloody love it

You've just described me as a child to a tee! I didn't have any brothers but did like to play with the boys next door..

This is the best, most sensible discussion I've seen on this in a long time. It makes me so sad and angry that my teenage children call me transphobic when I say it's impossible to change sex, and that gender is a social construct.

That was really interesting. Those of us who have followed developments for a while recognised the cult like nature of the current trans movement a while ago but it was interesting to see so many people repeating the same stock phrases to dismiss any questions raised about the wisdom of transitioning children.

The focus on men not "passing" if they don't transition as children also highlights how this is a men's rights movement. Testosterone is such a powerful hormone that the "passing" argument does not work for girls and yet they still advocate for puberty blockers, testosterone and mastectomies for gender questioning teenage girls despite the fact that the effects of testosterone on girls are less reversible than the effects of oestrogen on boys.

We're often told we're on the wrong side of history but I do wonder how history will record this period; well intentioned adults harming children by accident or a the mass psychosis many of us recognise it as.

What can we do to safe guard our children?

I know your heart is in the right place and you are worried for your daughter’s future challenges and what she will go through if she decides that her biological sex does not align with her gender. BUT I think you are conflating two very different things. Feeling that you want to do stereotypically masculine things, like pay football or wear your hair short is not the same thing as believing your gender is different to the biological sex you were assigned at birth.
My niece was assigned male at birth and has undergone full gender reassignment. She is a computer games designer (typically a male dominated career). She plays electric guitar, as a child she loved trains. She is beautiful and feminine but as a child she didn’t like typically ‘girly’ things.
Having a biological gender assigned to you, and dealing with all the gender constructs that come from a body that outwardly classifies you as a gender you don’t identify with can be catastrophically damaging in a very existential way. It is not up to people who are comfortable with their assigned gender to lead discussions on what will or won’t help.
Exposure to positive female role models in sport or other male dominated fields can only be a good thing, hopefully it will tackle some of the misogyny that is so prevalent and give young women the confidence they need to succeed in these areas. It’s not going to stop some people feeling that they have literally been born into the wrong body. We should be educating our children about gender and trans rights in the hope that society will begin to b come more accepting and inclusive so that everyone, regardless of their gender (and there are many genders btw) can feel confident to become their authentic selves whether that aligns with their biological sex or not.

No one is assigned anything. X or y sperm meets egg and that decides the sex. Its determined at conception.

By adopting this notion its a choice , a random decision that can sometimes go wrong ( outside of medical conditions tat cause ambiguity) is contributing to the confusion.

You are male or female. Everything else is a construct, something imposed on you by society which is what needs abolishing.

It’s incredibly cruel to encourage or allow children and adolescents to believe that their bodies are wrong must be fixed to match their personalities.

I agree. It's just reinforcing stereotypes and is the opposite of progressive:
Oh you like dresses, you must be a girl!
Oh you like football, you must be a boy!

It's bullshit.

A brilliant post. She's lucky to have you for her mum. But what have we come to in a few short years? When I was young me and all my friends believed women could break down barriers, dress how we pleased rather than for the male gaze, say what we thought and stride through the world. A few years later there's huge amount of gender stereotyping with young women expected to be hyper feminine and a regressive idea of "gender" creeping through everything. Keep her safe from would be "kind" " inclusive" influences and influencers until she's built her own boundaries and good luck to you and all the mothers protecting their children. The more people speak out the more we will roll this awful regressive stuff back.

The only thing I took from your post was that you didn't and haven't read any of the posts before yours.
What do you say to the people who don't have a gender? No one is assigning genders to babies when they are born. Society has imposed gender on us. It's not something we are born with. No one is born in the wrong body. I have sympathy for your family member. How awful to feel you need to alter your body. Gender is regressive stereotypes.

Society needs to change, not children. Normalise boys playing with dolls, painting nails, girls playing football, having short hair. What even is gender? The idea that boys like some things and girls like other things? I actually don't think I have a gender. I'm female because I have female reproductive organs. I'm at great risk of being raped because I'm female. I'm not a girl because I paint my nails.

I'm another person who was never girly - more interested in maths and computers than fashion and make-up. It does seem like all those stereotypes we were beginning to overturn are becoming stronger again, because stereotypes are okay if you can choose which one you want to be - and I think that's really detrimental. DD is very similar to me, and seems happy being a non-girly girl (despite non-binary and trans-identifying friends) - it perhaps helps to have me as an example that it's fine.

Totally agree. As a child of the 70s/80s no one batted an eye at short-haired girls wearing boys’ clothes. There were “girl toys” and “boy toys” but kids played with whatever they fancied and what was available. They grew into perfectly ordinary, happy women and men. No-one seriously suggested Adam Ant, Boy George, Marylin or Pete Burns were girls or Annie Lennox and Grace Jones were boys regardless of clothes, make-up or sexual orientation.
I do think there was discrimination as far as boys participating in “girly” activities like dance, and that’s never really gone away, but no suggestion of being not male.

It’s a shit show now. Playing with stereotypes or not fitting societal norms is now deemed a demonstration of “trans identity”. The idea that putting people on endocrine altering meds to dick around with every aspect of health is a good idea is mind boggling. No-one knows long term outcomes. No medics are collating genuine research data.

It’s utterly immoral. I actually don’t care if it’s adults choosing to do this or not. In fact, on simply cost/benefit grounds I object. Anyone trotting down this path is consuming a cocktail of drugs their body does not need. With no certainty of positive long term benefit. Taking them for the rest of their life. Then, the known (and as yet unknown) knock-on health impacts. What is that costing/going to cost?

Prevalence of vaginal atrophy, need for hysterectomy, urinary incontinence, heart medications, breast surgeries, hair removal, mental health meds and treatments. All documented effects so far. For a socialised healthcare system that’s a lot of money to spend with no proven benefit. Even in consumer system like US where it’s covered by insurance - every other consumer is taking a hit on the cost as premiums rise to cover it. There’s no winners here - people feeling good about themselves for being social justice warriors blindly promoting a new religion.

Please don't downplay gender dysphoria. There is a serious difference between celebrating achievement outside gender norms and accepting that your child feels different inside to what they have on the outside.

I know children who felt that way at four but were then given gender norms to follow so tried their hardest at bring their assigned gender rather than being given acceptance for who they are inside. If boys can like cooking, dancing and wearing dresses and still be boys, it's not those things that make them a boy inside. Likewise your DD may like things associated with being a boy or actually feel like they are a boy.

Either way, it's about love, support and understanding. And if it's a phase? So what? Let them have it rather than hide it.
A happy child is better than a dead one, surely?

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