To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

I don't thinknfor a moment most of the people who believe in the importance of sex and who are gender critical think for a moment that trans children shouldn't be supported.

I think the conversation is more around the importance of taking the time ans applying scrutiny to each idividual each time to ensure that children are given the right support. For some, that absolutely might be transitioning. The complication which makes things difficult to talk about is that a disproportionate number of autistic girls identifybas trans and there is a worrying trend of people who have transitioned wanting to change back. The concern has always got to be "how ido i support my child to find the right path without getting it wrong?".

My concern is not whether a person should be allowed to transition, it's when should a person transition? What due diligence? How is this done in a way that recognises the pain a child is in but balances the damage/benefits of giving things time to make sure this is the right path.

The children should always be at the heart of these things.

There absolutely shouldn't be a 6 year wait to be seen as I'm sure many people wait before telling parents who then wait before trying to her an appointment. it should be treated as urgent. But i do think that once on the pathway, everything should be considered rigorously and time should be given for the person to reflect, which I think is the nuance that many lobbyists do not agree with and consider that appointments should be reaffirming amd I think that is dangerous for getting the right outcome for children. And yes, I do understand just how much pain some children can be in and hate themselves and be at risk of self harm and suicide during this time, which is why the appointment , not the pathway, should be urgent.

I 100% agree with you OP

I agree with you.

15 years ago my niece was exactly like your daughter. She went a bit further and said she was a boy and refused to wear anything but football kit, which amazingly her strict uniform.policy school allowed her to do. It went on until she went to secondary school.when she suddenly dropped the whole thing.

She is now a very happy gay woman, she is absolutely female. If this was today she would probably have been told about gender identity, being non binary etc etc. Who knows where she would be.

I am so heartened to see this thread and the responses on it. A couple of years ago, most of the responses would have said "be kind" and "trans women are women" etc.

I have nothing at all against trans people and wish them a happy life free from harassment. But I am very much against the transitioning of children, teens and very young adults. As the Cass report says, there's so much going on at that stage - young people might think they are trans because they don't conform to stereotypes for their sex; because they're realising they're same sex attracted; because they're autistic and don't fit in socially or are struggling with puberty; because it's cool to be non-binary or pansexual and part of the fun rainbow community; etc.

Sounds like you are doing a great job with your daughter OP. I hope the government continue with the schools PHSE consultation and that we can put an end to schools bringing in external groups that teach absolute nonsense about "really" being the opposite sex if you like this or that stereotype.

My friend's daughter is 15. Even as a toddler she hated wearing dresses, in fact flatly refused. As she grew she liked football.. plays on a girls team.. likes gaming... no interest in feminine stuff at all. No Barbie dolls for her... no interest. Then suddenly within the last year she has wanted to learn about makeup, she's noticing good looking boys, and while she still won't wear dresses she likes more girly tops to go with her jeans. Likes her hair done nicely. She would, in some circles, have been encouraged to "identity" as a boy, which could have totally messed with her head and been a travesty. She's a young woman through and through.. thank god for parents who just let her be herself and she matured into that lovely young woman in her own time.

Unfortunately, when you wake up in the morning you don't have the body you think you have. You don't have a penis.
**
And many transfolk don't have surgery - they just live as their preferred gender.

So a transboy (to take your example) is a boy, yet they don’t have a penis.
In fact, their whole body is female, so how are they a boy?

You say it’s not about wanting to do things which society associates with the opposite sex (climbing trees, playing football and so on).

You also say that many transpeople don’t have surgery (which is probably for the best), so having/ not having a penis might feel wrong to them, yet in many cases they seem to accept it.

So what does „living as their preferred gender“ actually mean then? It seems to me like it‘s mostly about validation and affirmation from others, about insisting to be seen in a particular way.

My daughter was born in 1996 and it didn’t seem to be a thing in her childhood - mind you, we were in a very rural area where many of her friends were farmers’ children heavily involved in outdoor work whatever their sex. I didn’t see any pressure for ‘girliness’ until she went to university really.

One of my problems is the teenage years into your twenties is all about fitting in at the same time as your body is changing.

These two things have been linked together in an unhealthy way by activists. It's cultlike. Cults target people going through moments of significant life change.

The inability to realise why these two things coinciding is problematic is significant. But then the number of people who don't understand the difference between causation and correlation never fails to amaze me.

Not sure if anyone else has posted this link in this thread, but this film is excellent. I watched it this evening and it explains so much about where the gender cult started and what is happening now, and why. It opens in twitter/X so just click on the video that starts playing. https://x.com/i/status/1811125941541687316

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I cannot keep watching that heartbreaking documentary. Thinking of the hundreds of thousands of confused children and young people caught up in life long medicalisation of their healthy bodies is do distressing. All those images of young women and teenagers cutting off healthy breasts. Being actively encouraged by the medical and education community feels like the collective insanity of normally really very intelligent people. I still don’t get it.

I do feel that even if schools stop teaching our children that it’s ok to change your body if you think you’re the wrong gender, social media probably has a larger influence and even if you protect your own child from accessing this message, you can’t stop their friends from accessing it and then being a large influence on your child. All we can do is keep telling our children that they do not have to conform to gender stereotypes and to embrace their individuality but that their bodies are healthy and perfect just as they are.

I don't thinknfor a moment most of the people who believe in the importance of sex and who are gender critical think for a moment that trans children shouldn't be supported.

Agreed. The disagreement is on what the support should look like: a) a "gender affirming" model, where all support starts from the premise that the patient's gender identity belief is valid and therapy/intervention is focused on helping them to feel more comfortable as their "authentic self" OR b) a Cass-aligned approach where a neutral "differential diagnosis" model is used to unpick and address why someone might be distressed, without gender identity at its core (in this model, social transition is unhelpful as it's already the first step in the affirmation model)

My concern is not whether a person should be allowed to transition, it's when should a person transition? What due diligence? How is this done in a way that recognises the pain a child is in but balances the damage/benefits of giving things time to make sure this is the right path.

Surely if, not when? Also, it has to be based on informed consent. At the moment, children (and many of their parents) seem to believe that it's possible to go through the puberty of the opposite sex, by using cross-sex hormones (accompanied by puberty blockers sometimes too). It's not. There is either puberty or no puberty. Cross-sex hormones simply create a mimicry of some opposite sex characteristics. That's why (transwo)men's hips and transmen's (women who identify as men) voice boxes don't grow. Testosterone will thicken the vocal chords but not change the voice box itself, hence the distinctive "croak" sound that is different from a naturally broken male voice.
Perhaps more importantly, puberty blockers fully stop puberty. If they are used early enough, puberty will never actually start. If they remain in use past the natural window of puberty (they are generally used alongside cross-sex hormones until late teenage years), there will be no puberty. Ever.
Here's an X thread on the risk of this in relation to brain maturation and executive functioning - keep in mind that both the Cass Report and the NHS state that nobody knows the impact of puberty blockers on the developing teenage brain:
https://x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1746253004217454968?t=pRPTikw6cEkT4FXGiV3p4A&s=19

The complication which makes things difficult to talk about is that a disproportionate number of autistic girls identifybas trans and there is a worrying trend of people who have transitioned wanting to change back. The concern has always got to be "how ido i support my child to find the right path without getting it wrong?".

Agreed. Only 1% of the population is autistic, yet GIDS referrals show anywhere between 35% (Cass) and 48% (research by 2 GIDS clinicians: https://repository.tavistockandportman.ac.uk/1910/) are autistic. Cass also cites a 5000% increase in girls' referrals over this period. That simply makes no sense.

The children should always be at the heart of these things.

There absolutely shouldn't be a 6 year wait to be seen as I'm sure many people wait before telling parents who then wait before trying to her an appointment. it should be treated as urgent.

Agreed. But which type of care should they get? "Gender affirming care" or a Cass-aligned model of differential diagnosis and mental health support?

And yes, I do understand just how much pain some children can be in and hate themselves and be at risk of self harm and suicide during this time, which is why the appointment , not the pathway, should be urgent.

The distress of believing that you have a gender identity that differs from your sex must be awful. Thankfully suicide risk (and most likely self harm) is no different for this cohort than it is for any co-morbiditity that is seen alongside a child identifying as trans e.g. autism, trauma from bullying/sexual assault. But yes, urgent support is key. This is a recent study from Finland which normalises the results alongside those of co-morbiditities, to remove the bias of the gender identity (belief) skew:
https://x.com/segm_ebm/status/1761469814185533449?t=BaAvG7rwWHGamHvEdu3_JQ&s=19

In answer to your questions:

• if is a valid amendment from when.
• the Cass Model.

‘Living in their preferred gender’ seems to mean living as a cliched woman. It’s so regressive. It’s saying to young women that if they don’t meet their gender stereotype then there is something wrong with them. There isn’t.

check out the Dylan Mulgavny doing a gym session as a cliche of a women. It’s appalling.

👍👍

@DrBlackbird I felt the same watching it, but got to the end. Some people will undoubtedly brush it off as conspiracy theory but I would urge everyone to watch it and make up their own minds. It's an exploration of the power of belief. It starts off sounding a bit out there (for anyone who hasn't stumbled upon transhumanism) but even from the beginning, with celebrities like Whoopi Goldberg and Morgan Freeman implicitly endorsing the "science" behind it all, it shows how deep the belief can go. Regardless of whether someone is fully in to the whole thing (transhumanism) or just wants to be kind to (transwo)men who identify as women, the impact of internalising a belief as a truth is most keenly felt by children and young people re gender identity.

At some point you have to look at outcomes. Regardless of how we got here, how can any movement which celebrates the amputation of healthy body parts, advocates for the suppression of normal puberty and normalises taking cross sex hormones be considered sane or healthy? Quite apart from the sexism, homophobia and impact on people with autism. It’s quite incredible that there are people paid to go into schools to propagate this belief.

@BonfireLady I am already familiar with the trans humanism ideology/ movement from the AI side of that issue. That comparison was not a stretch. Although of course possible there’s female advocates, but I’ve only read about men advancing the transhumanism project and a lot coming from the tech world and Silicon Valley.

However, the parallels with cults could seem to be hyperbole for many and my preference would have been a more gradual comparison enabling people to come to that realisation themselves. However in this attention deficit society we inhabit I suppose we all expect the first minute to grab our attention or we turn away already bored. I’ll go back and continue watching to see where it is trying to take the audience.

Unfortunately, the reality is very much that the impact of internalising a belief as a truth is most keenly felt by children and young people re gender identity and, in particular, young autistic people.

It’s so clear they are more susceptible to gender identity beliefs with a mix of feeling they don’t fit in or understand / adhere to sex based stereotypes. Tendency towards being trusting and naive of other’s agendas and being slow to see risk. An innate desire to be special and attraction to social justice issues of which our most recent is trans rights and pronouns. Such traits might be strengths in other situations but are disastrously combined with quite rigid black and white thinking and often reflexive stubbornness in the case of GI. So once ‘taught’ to accept this belief as truth, these young people find it very difficult to amend or recalibrate their thinking.

The more I think about it, the angrier I become that such vulnerable children, teens and young adults have been exploited in this way.

She's a typical girl who likes sporty stuff and dislikes the restrictions of skirts. This is perfectly normal behaviour. And I do hope that most people don't settle down and conform to gender roles. We did our best to get rid of those.

The characteristics of a cult are:

Target vulnerable people looking for acceptance who seem easy to influence
Convince members this is the way to be happy
Authoritarian practices making members dependent on & obedient to the group
Zero tolerance for criticism or questions (no debate)
Plant unreasonable fears about the outside world - eg being persecuted.
Former followers are always wrong to leave (detransitioners)
Psychological manipulation can lead to dangerous decisions (drugs, surgery)
Cut members off from family & friends, non-cult members viewed with suspicion
Followers feel they're never good enough ("don't pass")

There are other things too but I thought these were the most apt. I think the main difference is that there isn't one charismatic leader, but a lot of online influencers and celebrity allies.

Germaine, is that you? 💖

💯. There are so many scandalous, barely-remembered fuck-ups in medicine, like the institutionalisation and shock treatment of people in the 40s and 50s, the women who used to be given brutal genital surgery for 'hysteria', and as for autism, well, words fail me - there was an era when the parents were blamed and the children taken away ('parentectomies' - sound familiar?) and given Freudian therapy, I believe - some of those so-called experts were monsters. Bettelheim in particular was a fraud with faked credentials. We should never ever forget how devastatingly wrong 'experts' can be.

If anyone has watched the TV series Dopesick - about the opioid crisis- i have found the parallels are quite striking.
It is so saddening to realise how easy it is to get people to accept false narratives that cause great harm.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic That's so sad. The miserable reason behind the inability to discuss the trans agenda is that the entire shebang is a cult. It has the hallmarks of being so. I hope that we end this nonsense so that your son can be saved from it - all we can do is fight, I guess.

I just don't get this whole 'gender identity' stuff. It's not like any of us wake up in the morning feeling male or female that morning. Let kids be kids. let them play with whatever toys they want, play whatever sport they enjoy & wear whatever clothes they feel comfortable in without anyone saying anything about their gender. we're all born Male or Female but we can feel anything we want & shouldn't be pressured into feeling something other than ourselves.
Be there to support your DD as you are & let her come to you with any worries or concerns she has. Encourage her to just be herself & not label herself as anything other than 'I'm ME'