To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

Fully agree with you OP.

Children should be taught that people have varied interests, talents, clothes, hairstyles, jobs, personalities etc. and that it is not possible to change sex.

And society should never have accepted the word 'transwoman' and use of 'she/her' for males because it obfuscates the person's sex.

Agree. Politicians should never have used legislation to create this mess

Great thread, OP.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

To add (and I've seen a couple of other PPs say similar to): there is no need to identify as anything.

I would happily have said in the past that I identified as a woman but I've realised that I don't.

I'm not saying I'm non-binary or agender, simply that I don't identify as anything. I am a woman but I don't identify as one.

There are some people who believe that we all have a gender identity, for whom identifying as a girl, boy, woman, man etc is meaningful. There are also plenty of people who don't believe that we all have a gender identity and think that teaching it to children as fact is wrong, a transwoman's belief that they are a woman shouldn't give them access to women's sports etc etc.

Why did I change my mind on what I believe? Many reasons but this video really helped me to get my head around it all:

Obviously there are some people who hold this belief and feel a genuine distress that they are "in the wrong body" (and there are some who feign this to their own advantage e.g. Isla Bryson... there are many Isla Brysons unfortunately, many/most of whom identity as "lesbian"). There are also children who are vulnerable to believing this, based on being taught what being a girl or being a boy should "feel" like and feeling uncomfortable that their hobbies, preferences and (in adolesence) sexual orientation don't "match" what is "normal". Personally I find it homophobic and regressive, but people should be free to hold a belief that we all have a gender identity. They should also be free to say that they don't.

Couple of typos. D'oh.

To expand on why it's homophobic:

1. There are many adolescent girls and boys who experience an emerging same-sex attraction and feel uncomfortable about this. Sadly using "gay" as a slur is still a thing in schools. Some will grab on to a way to "fix" this by identifying as straight and the opposite sex. They'll be encouraged to see their hobbies and clothes preferences as evidence that they are in the wrong body, if these stereotypically "align" with those of the opposite sex.
2. There are adolesent boys who are straight, who are encouraged by older people online (known as "egg hunting") to conflate their emerging sexual feelings with an attraction to themselves as a female gaming avatar or similar. It's big in the gaming and anime world. They are encouraged to see themselves as lesbian and to demand acceptance as such. This forces lesbian women in to situations where they are called transphobic for not accepting "girldick". It's a rehash of a previous homophobic attitude where lesbians were told they just hadn't met the right man yet.

In both cases, autistic children and/or those who may struggle socially are disproportionately impacted by the confusing information about what being a girl or a boy means. Particularly if a lot of their socialising is online.

Who exactly is this 'we' who has got it wrong? Feminists, including many on Mumsnet, have been saying this for years- decades, in some cases!

There are adolesent boys who are straight, who are encouraged by older people online (known as "egg hunting") to conflate their emerging sexual feelings with an attraction to themselves as a female gaming avatar or similar. It's big in the gaming and anime world. They are encouraged to see themselves as lesbian and to demand acceptance as such.

WTF?! I’d ask why the older people are encouraging them in this but sadly I can well imagine.

There is a huge difference between gender and sex.

Gender is entirely socially constructed, where as your sex is your DNA.

My 7 year old son told me he wanted to be a girl. I drilled down into that more, only to find out he only wanted long hair. I then showed him pictures of male celebs etc with long hair. Now he says he's a boy.

I think we will find that if we just allow kids to express themselves, have deeper and honest conversations with them, then the actual number of trans people would be significantly lower (not that I have an issue with it anyway - live and let live)

And have been called all sorts of names because of it.

There are strong forces pushing this position. It's hard to understand (fully) where they have come from or what their motivation is.

True

As I recognise your username from the FWR board, I'm imagining that what you're imagining is correct.

I don't want to derail this thread but I think it's important that parents are aware (at a high level) of some of the online risks that may not be immediately apparent.

When the health risks associated with children and gender identity belief were discussed in the House of Commons were discussed on 15th April, one of the politicians (I can't remember her name) did make a reference to online gro0ming. This is one example of it. There are many other examples of "egg hunting" (adults looking for vulnerable children with whom they can talk about a transgender identity as an answer to their adolescent confusion) and also other examples of an anime and/or gaming link that impact girls too e.g. fanfic and other erotica literature. As with boys, it's often autistic girls and/or girls who struggle socially who are drawn in to it.

If anyone is interested in the HoC debate, here's a link:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5050831-debate-happening-in-house-of-commons-victoria-atkins-on-fire

The video in the OP doesn't work any more but there is an archived link further down the thread.

It's still topical because in the final 3 days of the Tory government, the then Health Secretary used extraordinary powers from the Medical Act 1968 to ban all puberty blockers in the UK, owing to the significant risk associated with them. This ban could only be in place for a maximum of 3 months, so ends on 3rd September unless it is extended by the new government. Wes Streeting has indicated that he would extend it.

In short there is lots of outside influence on teenagers which risks drawing them to believe that they are in the wrong body and putting them on a pathway towards irrerversible medical interventions and surgeries. Ostensibly they are given "time to think" but in practice, their affirmative journey in this belief begins very early on.

I have a dd who was never into pink dresses etc. She wore boys clothes, loved football and had a lot of male friends. She never once said she was a boy though and tbh I never gave it a second thought.

When you are a young girl, boys do seem to have a more fun life, running around more, practical clothing, not so much social emphasis on being quiet and "good". It doesn't surprise me that girls want some of that.

I don't think it has anything to do with gender identity, which I think is something quite different.

I grew up in the 70s. I wax taught girls can do what boys can do. I had short hair, wore trousers, didn’t like dolls. Nobody cared. Nobody commented on it.

When one adult asked my mother if I was a ‘tomboy’, she said No she’s herself.

It’s all nonsense but like all trends people are making money from it.

You are the sex you are born regardless of any body modifications, clothes or hair length

I don't think it has anything to do with gender identity, which I think is something quite different.

It becomes about gender identity when adults tell them it is.
Many mean well and just want to help, many want to demonstrate just how progressive and cool they are (unfortunately there are several teachers in this bracket), many see it as connected to the homophobia of the past (Section 28 etc).... and some are nefarious actors.

It would certainly be a lot simpler if clothes preferences etc were not connected to the idea that we all have a gender identity.

Op my dd always gravitated toward trains and stuff like that. I did buy her doll and she wasn't interested.
I never saw it as a gender thing just that she liked a range of stuff?

She went through a phase about 8 of wanting to be a boy and we had to call her Sam. A few months later she wanted to be a dog, have her food served on the floor and wear a collar.

Both phases that quickly passed.

This hard hitting documentary shows just how much grooming of children and teenagers has gone on online. It also highlights how many aspects of this ideology is comparable to cults. It's enraging but really worth a watch.
https://twitter.com/wrongbodies/status/1811125941541687316?s=19

While posting, I've randomly put on a 100 synth-pop hits video... things were so much progressive at breaking boundaries 40 years ago. It's a shame that we've hit regressive attitudes in recent years. The irony is that "non-binary" is actually reinforcing stereotypes and pushing them into binary extremes and undoing the hard-won progress of recent decades.

Agree 100%
We've basically re-wound the clock to square one. There was a point - not all that long ago - where people wanted shops to move away from gendered clothing and pink lego/pink everything aimed at girls.....and now the stereotyping is back and being used to try and categorise and label anyone and everyone.

And another irony is that "being inclusive" ...is actually anything but...
People are different, they like different things, some girls like short hair, some boys wear make up.being inclusive would actually mean no one gave a stuff if a girl wanted short hair and liked rugby and motorsport, or that people accepted a boy who hated team sports and liked dance.
ND kids and teens will probably feel even more different or, havent yet found their tribe, or don't quite fit in and IMO it's really not being kind or inclusive to persuade them that this will be solved by changing gender.

It's like the disastrous partnering of left leaning Utopianism and big pharma. Selling these children a delusion.

I was like that as a kid too, OP. Right down to insisting I was a boy for several years. My mum used to just say, "no, you're really a girl" if I brought it up.

My logic was, I felt like boys feel (as evidenced by my disdain of girly things) and also my hands were like boy hands (whatever that means, it seemed compelling at the time.)

I changed my thinking mainly when I became interested in boys romantically. It was like a switch, actually. I have wondered if this is why kids who are same sex attracted seem to struggle more with on this. I don't think it's gender identity though. I think it's really sexual identity. Not in a childish way, but in terms of coming to understand yourself as an adult who is sexually attractive to others and is sexually attracted in turn. Straight kids have to do this too, and it's scary for many young people at times, but I think more straightforward for straight kids. It's often also difficult for kids who have been sexually abused, or exposed to things like DV.

Gender ideology though, is just a bizarre fantasy with no scientific basis.

Having taught a STEM subject in schools its only recently (since COVID) that schools have been overrun with gender ideology.
Previously there have been big pushes to break gender stereotypes.
Getting girls into STEM.
Getting boys into cooking and textiles.
and various funding and grants that went with it.

Gender ideology with its stereotypes in schools is really bad and regressive for all children.

I couldn't agree more!!!

I completely agree with what you’ve said!
i remember reading years ago that there were cases of children who’d “changed sex” that then at 16-17 we’re so confused with who they were that they’d changed their minds etc… that’s more damaging imo . so sad too!
if you look at stories of families that have gone through this, like someone else mentioned there is often ND in play too.

I have experience of this in our family and I can honestly say the child in question only ever reacted to a positive reaction from a parent (think playing tricks/dressing in a princess dress) and from there the want to be the sex of said action grew and grew.. as a late teen now, the child is very unstable and has no real sense of who they are and I’d imagine regretting “change” quite so early (7). Should they have just been allowed to discover who they were themselves I think the outcome would be very different!!!

I don’t agree with children being taught that anyone can change gender because it can be really confusing for them when they are really young and if they decide they are one gender or another and start to transition but then decide they’re actually the gender they were assigned at birth it could cause serious psychological damage. I also don’t agree with your statement “I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case”. More straightforward for who? You? Or your daughter? If she decides when she’s older that she is transgender are you going to tell her it’s easier for her to stay a girl and be unhappy in her body that it is to change her gender/sex? Are you going to disown her because she doesn’t identify as a girl anymore to fit your preference rather than her own? Forcing her to stay a girl when she is older and identifies as male could damage both her mental health but also her relationship with you. Agree that it’s not right to be taught this in school but accept that if she decides to identify as male or anything else when she’s older she will need your support

You seem to have missed the point.

What does identity as a male mean. What is a male identity ? Without resorting to circular definitions and stereotypes we need to know what these identities are? You can't identity as something you can't define.

Forcing her to stay a girl when she is older and identifies as male could damage both her mental health but also her relationship with you.

But she IS always going to be a girl. Telling her lies about that at this point isn't going to help her.

Isnt it much better to reassure her there is no right or wrong way to be a girl and she can present / express herself however she wants as one?