To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

But based on what?

What is it they are feeling?

Boy just means juvenile male human? It's not a feeling. It's a fact. A reality. How can you feel like a boy? You just are one.

And how can a kid ever he happy on such an unstable impossible solution that is everyone pretends reality doesn't exist and colludes in lying to a child.

@pollymere

The TRA lobby had gender dysphoria changed from a mental illness to whatever it is now.

It them that have downplayed gender dysphoria and its definition.

You post about celebration achievements outside of gender norms. This was being done by working against gender stereotypes, girls in STEM, Boys in textiles and much more.
Now thanks to TRAs we are back to gender stereotypes and are just supposed to accept this without some sort of robust definition and foundation in fact.

I have a cousin (much younger that me, early twenties) and she went through a phase in her late teens of thinking she was a boy. Got everyone to call her by an alternate name, looked very much like a boy. Now she is the complete opposite- dresses, makeup, very girly, back to her old name. Think her mum just went along with it as she had other phases in her life, was just very relaxed about the whole thing, didn’t go out of her way to encourage but also didn’t discourage it and she literally just grew out of it. When I was at school whenever we played I would always insist on being a male character in whatever game it was, never wanted to be a female. I fear for how that would have been taken if things had been how they are now.

My daughter wasn't very girly at all. From being a toddler she preferred playing with cars, trains,bugs and dinosaurs.....anything but dolls! Didn't care for anything pink and preferred dungarees to pretty little dresses. Although she was a tomboy we never had any concerns about her gender identity and she was never confused by it either. Too many people are putting these weird ideas into the heads of young impressionable kids. It's all going too far!

I spent my childhood running around in bare feet, tucking my skirt into my knickers and climbing trees, paddling in streams and catching snails. The next minute, I would be twirling around in my skirt. I also had a really active childhood and was supported to compete in a male dominated sport. When I look back, I loved my childhood for the freedom it allowed me to explore all of my personality.

THIS

Yes I had my kids in the late 70's and was aware of the danger of stereotypes even then. I think it really went wrong when the LGB groups achieved equal marriage in 2013and the funding ran out so Stonewall and others embraced the T so they could keep going.

Since about 2000 some US billionaire medical and tech philanthropists have been throwing millions of dollars at LGBT groups and at universities and medical facilities, promoting transgenderism and gender identity ideology. Their aim is to blur the lines between the sexes and destabilise society. Their power and reach is quite frightening and in many countries they have already achieved their aim of having gender recognised in law, rather than sex which means that women's rights can no longer be upheld as there is now no category of woman which doesn't contain men. Gender ideology is extremely regressive and damaging to women and girls. The Billionaires Behind the LGBT Movement | Jennifer Bilek | First Things

Just be mindful that there are people in this world who DO have transkids and remember the first rule of life - Be Kind. It's really tough because they know how hard it's going to be for their child in terms of acceptance.

It's far far easier to be the gender you were born with and a horrible uphill struggle to live as the one that doesn't match your skin. It's currently a SIX YEAR wait to even be seen by a Gender Clinic to discuss feelings. Children don't enter that lightly.

And imagine YOUR child screwing up the courage to tell you their deepest darkest secret, and you respond with scorn or hate? There is enough hate in the world for them - they don't need it from you as well.

And actually, wouldn't you want to be the person who buys them their first binder or helps them with make-up?

There is so much hate on here. It's so sad. I'm sure most of you will end up with CIS heterosexual kids - but please, please, please THINK before you assume that the parent of a trans, non-binary or gender fluid child is somehow guilty of child abuse. We are all just doing our best to be loving parents aren't we?

This was me growing up. Had to wear boys clothes and was convinced in my mind I was a boy. It would have been so damaging to be told I could change my gender.
I’m happily married with a son and love being a women, but as a teenager could have easily wanted to be different and followed a path which in honestly would have made me miserable. I’m all for it if you’re an adult and know you want to change but I don’t think children should be told it’s okay to change. There’s a lot of stories of regret out there coming out now

But how do you not 'allow' them to think something? You can't can you!

I don't truly understand it because I don't have gender dysphoria. I know they are far happier living their life as their preferred gender than they ever were pretending to be someone they are not - that's the truly unstable situation.

As you put it: You don't feel like a boy - you are one. Unfortunately, when you wake up in the morning you don't have the body you think you have. You don't have a penis.

And many transfolk don't have surgery - they just live as their preferred gender.

Maybe talk to someone who is trans. Ask them how they feel. You will find a sense of clarity that explains this is way beyond a kid going "I wish I was a girl so I can wear pink" or "I wish I was a boy so I can climb trees and get dirty".

Where is the collusion? What lies are there? The truth is, you support them and deal with the actual realities together. No one would choose to face the hatred and misunderstanding. It takes a huge amount of courage and having family support and love is the one thing they need more than anything.

Well I must admit I'm really confused with the last part of your post! Surely the best thing we can tell our kids, and those in school, is that they are perfect as they are and that they can be and do what they want to regardless of their sex?

We also need to address the gender/trans stuff because they'll hear about it from somewhere, either at school or on the internet and we should say that it's just made up, it's not real, (gender is a social construct), and most people don't have a gender identity, but everyone has a personality.

Girls are at particular risk of wanting to be the opposite sex and many of them are lesbian (definitely uncool these days), autistic, have been sexually abused, are in care, have MH problems, been bereaved etc. It's the new anorexia or self-harming.

To the OP with I think 14 in a school of 900 - my friend has 4 in a class of 30!! Schools should never validate these 'identities', it's so damaging and can have long term harmful consequences.

I find it baffling. Tastes/likes and preferences do not define your sex. It seems so backwards to be reinforcing that if you like blue/trousers and football you must be a ‘boy’

This may be the experience of your friends but for many young girls being taught about gender and how you can identify as men is exactly what's causing a social contagion amongst teen girls. It's the new cutting and anorexia. Abigail Shrier talks about this in her book "Irriversable Damage".
Whilst gender disphoria is a very real mental disorder, most kids, around 90% will go through puberty and grow out of it. But just because this is a real disorder it doesn't mean that people are actually born in the wrong body and this is what they're essentially teaching kids in school. It's confusing and harmful . A man can never become a woman and vice versa. To tell kids they actually can be the opposite sex is a lie and it's only setting them up for further distress as their bodies start to change through puberty. To temporarily alleviate this distress some kids may start puberty blockers and then move on to cross sex hormones and it's this aspect of the whole gender ideology which is the most damaging especially considering that most will grow out of this distress.
So it's great that your friends as fully grown adults and can make the decision to transition but as we know a humans brain isn't fully formed until our early 20s. So let's not lead children down a confusing path and more importantly a path which can do irreversible damage to their growing bodies which they more the likely will regret later on.

I should have said “without challenge” but thought it was implicit. Children believe all sorts of things, but we don’t affirm other erroneous beliefs especially if mental health related. If an anorexic child told you she was fat, one wouldn’t affirm that, so why do it if someone believes their healthy body is so distressing they need to change it? They need support to accept the reality of their bodies rather than being validated in their feelings of alienation from their bodies. I didn’t mean to suggest we can directly control their thoughts!

Well we don't affirm anorexic children who think they're fat. We try to reframe problematic relationships with their body.

No one is born with a gender. We are all born with a biological sex.

Binders are dangerous and i wouldn't be buying one for anyone.

I bought my son his first makeup and helped him learn how to apply it. He's still a man and always will be.

@pollymere

Thanks to the TRA lobby we are far beyond "be kind"
And try not to use the word "cis" as many find it offensive.

Its also interesting to see that you say that many do not have surgery but choose to "live as their preferred gender" as they don't seem to be able to define what that gender is or what it means.

Most children with gender dysphoria will reconcile with their biological sex if they are allowed to go through natural puberty. Many will find they are gay or lesbian. Medically treating gender dysphoria is literally gay conversion therapy; "transing the gay away" is the preferred outcome for homophobic parents.

A happy child is better than a dead one, surely?

This is a reprehensible thing to say because it is grossly inaccurate. Emotionally blackmailing parents into consenting to the "medical profession" harming their children is not kind or compassionate. You should be ashamed of repeating this lie and should get your information from more reputable sources than the activist groups who pass themselves off as experts.

The book "Time To Think" buy Hannah Barnes or any of the interviews or lectures on the WPATH Files by Michael Shellenberger would be good places to start. Genspect also has a large selection of lectures and interviews on their YouTube channel. The podcast Gender: A Wider Lens is also very informative.

There is no such thing as a "trans child", there are children with gender dysphoria.

The treatment for children with gender dysphoria is supportive "watchful waiting" because puberty will resolve the issue for most. Medical treatment of children is experimental, there is no science to support the use of puberty blockers but plenty recording the harms.

There is no hate here just people who are better informed than you about the harms of "gender affirming care". Do you know that children who are effectively puberty blocked at Tanner stage 2 and then go on to take cross sex hormones are all sterile and mostly anorgasmic. Do you think 10 years olds can give informed consent for that?

Chest binders FFS, have you any idea about the permanent harm they do.

I totally agree. People should be able to be themselves regardless of sex. But I am worried about the current trend of young people thinking their problems can be solved by changing gender.

I do believe that a small minority are born into the 'wrong body' but also that so many young people now are seeing this as a possible solution to other worries and concerns. I gather there is a skewed percentage of ASD children going down this route - they are maybe struggling to find their place in this world and think this might be the solution - but surely there are better answers.

I have a close friend and a family member in late teens/early twenties both looking to take hormones. It's such a big step, and while it might be the right thing for some people I really worry that it won't be the easy solution that some children expect. There was a TV documentary a while back that followed five teenagers, and I think three of them changed their minds in their mid twenties.

Teenage years are full of angst. Any suggestion that taking a load of hormones and changing gender will solve that is missing the point. Teach them resilience and life skills......

Exactly!
This whole idea of gender has no basis in reality anyway and I struggle to see how it's any different to believing in a soul. No offence to those who do but the concept of a soul and those who believe in don't jam it down our throat and push our governments to make policies based on a make believe concept.
Sex is real, gender is a belief system much like that of a religion. There's is no scientific that gender is seperate from sex. What is gender anyway ? Our personality? Our preferences??

I think it all started properly around the time smartphones really became popular, thus attaching us to the internet like a saline drip, no matter where we are or time of day. So around 2010 IMO.

Thank you @Itsmyshadow. I have thought this for a long time.
We shouldn't be encouraging children to make these kinds of decisions anyway. When we claim that children do not have fully formed frontal lobes till 20. Decision-making comes from the frontal lobe.

25 apparently.