To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

Hi OP

I completely agree. I found this article helpful.

x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755

Gender as a whole is nonsensical.

I know zero gender conforming adults.

Gender as a concept should be abolished. It’s nothing but harmful, pigeonholing people based on their personality.

I’m constantly amazed that anyone goes along with it, when it’s blatant sexism.

I mean, why would any dr or teacher give any truck to gender stereotype driven trans statuses?
We’re gaslit to believe that gender is our inner identity, which is bullshit, we are the sex that we are, and beyond that we have personalities and preferences. Girl that has short hair? Cool. Does not make her a boy, and we should view anyone claiming otherwise with huge distrust.

Show me a transed child with no gender stereotyping involved at all. It’ll be a long wait.

Yes, and my advice to you is to keep going with what you are doing. It's not easy, but you should try to be as present as you can as a family to accompany her through her pre teen/ younger teen years, so your "voice" isn't completely lost.

Hard agree. This is exactly what we should be doing (and what a lot of people like you, me, and others on here are doing and pushing for).

I couldn’t agree more with you OP.

I wish your message could reach people in education and others who have influence on children.

I was reflecting on this yesterday. As a kid I had short hair, wore trousers most of the time, wore DMs, refused to use a handbag, and as I got older I used to nick my dad’s clothes.

I also had anxiety and OCD. I would have been convinced I was trans, and it would have worried me sick.

Of course we have got it wrong. Many adults still don't know who they are, what they want to be, where they fit into their own lives and yet we want to pin down small children who have only just been able to spell their own names.

We should just leave them alone and stop using them to validate adult lifestyles and choices.

Activities clothes sports interests etc are just those. They should not be thought of as girls or boys specifically Let kids find the ones they like and get on with it.

As with anything these days, would anyone even give a shit if there wasn't social media/camera phones etc and all the validation gained from posting pics and attention seeking. Adults are too needy these days and as a result kids are caught in the crossfire fire.

Pics of " trans" get alot of attention at the moment. Perfect fir the lonely and needy.

Out of interest, who was the external pressure group?

I voted YANBU but this is hardly a new idea. It was already a thing in the 70s and 80s but somewhere it got lost in a sea of Disney Princess frocks.

'We' haven't got it wrong OP. Other than a vocal minority that have managed to gain a lot of influence where it matters, the rest of us believe exactly as you do. Back in the late 80s we started bringing up our children to understand that their sex didn't have to dictate their interests, clothing choices and personality and we were making great progress. Its been a real shock to me to see the rise in such regressive attitudes and an even bigger one that such nonsense has gained this level of traction. On the plus side, it feels very much that the tide is turning. I know a number of formerly 'trans' teens who cheerfully say they not 'into that anymore'. So hopefully it will go the way of other trends.

Absolutely agree with you OP.

Back in the late 80s we started bringing up our children to understand that their sex didn't have to dictate their interests, clothing choices and personality and we were making great progress it started earlier than that otherwise I agree with you. I don't know where it wrong - 90s? Early 2000s?

I totally agree. I don’t identify as a female; I’m ‘Icanttakethisanymore’ who is Caucasian, has blue eyes and IS female. It’s a description of my physical characteristics. Society has taught people that this mesns I also have to be caring, like creative activities, be submissive etc etc. I also shouldn’t be assertive, enjoy technical subjects, like cars etc etc. we need to remove the expectation that being female means anything at all beyond describing our physical characteristics.

It was a group called Pop and Olly.

100% agree.

If my 14 year old niece had a mother like you then she wouldn’t be in the mess she is now, having been forced (by her mother and the Tavistock centre etc) to identify as a boy just because she has shown no interest in traditional girl activities, clothing and ideals (and not forgetting her autism diagnosis which has been pushed to one side in favour of going down this ridiculous route).

It’s too late for her as the damage has been done but we need a drastic turnaround before we fuck up hundreds of more lives.

This is incredibly insightful and well-written, thank you. Saving it for future reference. I have a 2yo daughter who obviously can't and doesn't express any kind of preference yet, but she's an active outdoorsy type who people keep describing as like a boy, irritatingly, so this post really articulates what I've been struggling to put into words. I haven't had to deal with any of this rubbish in schools and I hope I won't have to either but if the time comes, this is a great argument.

Is she by any chance ND? Those hobbies are extremely common in the ASD/ADHD spectrum across both genders. They have nothing to do with gender identity but more about the love for pattern recognition, learning facts, numbers or being rewarded with dopamine for doing certain tasks. Children can't really grasp the idea of gender so they may believe they're a boy because they hear people saying the things she likes are typically only for boys.

FWIW those were my exactly special interests growing up and I spent almost my entire childhood and teenage years (until age 17) dressing androgynously with a boy's haircut. It would probably raise every single alarm bell nowadays but back then gender identity wasn't a thing so nobody cared. I'm ND and I somehow have a fuzzy memory of liking masculine presenting clothes because of the "power" they had. I wanted to appear male because I wanted to be taken seriously and to project the aura of competence that boys and men are given, compared to girls. It had nothing to do with sexuality.

In the 90s, gay/lesbian was the only contentious topic, and I always knew I was straight so I didn't give it any more thought. And I basically just grew out of it. Around 17 I suddenly discovered makeup, feminine clothing etc and that was it. I've always been CIS female, very female presenting and now married with children. Never doubted my gender or sexuality aside from that phase in my teens where I liked male-orientated hobbies (which I still do).

I would personally not worry too much, and obviously don't start any treatments. Many ND children and teens go through phases where they might identify as non-binary, the opposite gender, aroace or even animals (furries) but it's more a form of rebellion or self-expression. I had lots of friends who were like that eventually 90% settled down in traditional gender roles and families.

I was in uni till 2001 and we were taught to be gender critical and that gender is a construct. I have no idea how this has regressed so much.

Most sensible & thoughtful thread I've seen on this in a long time. You're completely right & I went through a similar thing with my youngest son whose friends transed him out of kindness, not cruelty. He wore what clothes he wanted, a skirt for his uniform & did ballet (& rugby!), so to them it was obvious 🤷🏼‍♀️. He's now 15 & realised a few years ago he's just a run-of-the-mill gay. The experience he had has made him quite cynical against the entire movement.

Within your framework there does need to be acknowledgement of gender dysphoria, though, & there has to be support & care (even surgical solutions) for the vanishingly few ppl that actually suffer with it & it alone - not as a symptom or effect of another disorder.

If it helps - my son & I talked at length about learning the body he's in before making decisions (he was 10 or so). I never said 'no' or that I didn't believe him or that I did - just acknowledged his feelings.

(should add he is ND AF. A. F!)

Would love someone to actually define female gender without resorting to stereotypes. Impossible. Infuriating.

I agree it feels regressive (to me) that we spent years trying to break stereotypes - girls can play football, play with trucks, wear short hair etc and boys can do ballet, play with dolls, have long hair etc
And there's been a big drive to get women into STEM (far less so getting boys into more female lower paid jobs)
But now the pendulum seems to have swung back to stereotyping and pigeon-holing people according to what's "normal" for that gender!

I really can't believe how we've got here. I was born in the late 70s and remember in my childhood the focus was on breaking down regressive sex based stereotypes. I went to an all girls school where I told I could be whatever I wanted. My sex did not define what I could do.

Then I had my children in the early 2000's and the focus for all my friends having children at the same time, was a progression of that messaging - there were no "boys" or "girls" toys. Our children played with whatever interested them. We wanted to get rid of gender messaging through boys clothes (blue) or girls clothes (pink). But there was no suggestion that if my son wanted to play with a barbie for an afternoon that meant he was probably really a girl. I mean that very idea is just insane to me. He just liked playing with Barbies for a bit. Then he tried Lego. Who cares - they're just toys. He had friends who were girls and boys. In all honesty he probably got on better with girls sometimes than boys as he was not massively into boisterous play, but that didn't mean he was a girl. He's now a happy, healthy, well adjusted 21 year old young man still with friends of both sexes.

How on earth have we got to the point where people are really worrying that playing with the "wrong" gender toys, or having friends of the opposite sex means their child is going to be encouraged to change gender?? And that we have a worried mum posting that "I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case."

Of course she's going to remain a girl. She is a girl. She can't change her sex.

OP - I'm so sorry that the world has got to itself to this state that this is what you are having to worry about. Your daughter sounds wonderful and I hope you can all navigate your way safely through all this madness.

another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender

I hope she told the child (or would now have the confidence to tell them) 'Pfft. I'm a girl. Hobbies don't make you into a boy.'

Your daughter was me, op. 50 years ago. When it was totally normal and within the expected spectrum of behaviour for girls to be into "boy" stuff. My socially conservative parents were 100 % fine with it and encouraged me to be what ever I wanted to be.
I think the problem is that society has always "struggled" with feminine boys. my parents were cool with me as a gender nonconforming girl. I know they would have been less so had I been a boy