To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

have not RTFT and maybe won't bother. 2nd Wave Feminism tried to get rid of gender stereotyping for a reason.

I am so happy that people are rediscovering it despite the fact that a lot of us have barely talked about anything else for half a century.

Strong agree with you, OP

Definitely agree re the 1980s. It felt then that as a result of sexism, some girls didn't want to be girls because they had been told girls were rubbish, and the things they liked was boys' stuff so they should look like a boy and therefore be stronger and more accepted. Where I always thought that girls were the best and was so proud to be a girl and knew that it didn't stop me from liking or doing anything. It feels like the same is happening now because of transgender stuff.

And this grooming is exactly why we pre-warned our kids the schools will do this.

I could be your daughter @Itsmyshadow . County footballer, county basketball player, regional/national league hockey player. Played mixed and girls football. Work in a tech-related field where engineering awareness is also important (someone a bit cleverer does the actual structural engineering, but you have to get a concept close enough for them to pass with tweaks). Very good at maths. Grew up in the very early 90s with 2 brothers and 4 neighbours about the same age, all boys. Wanted to be a boy for a little while in the primary years but would not, have never considered and never will consider 'becoming a man' and am straight as they come with a long term male DP. I do not however own a dress, heels, don't do makeup etc. Still female!

I'm pleased you are introducing her to women's sports etc, I think it is good to see that your hobbies and interests don't define your sex. (Gender is a bullshit social construct)

I do occasionally think what would have happened if the concept of actually changing to a boy was floated to me as an impressionable 10 year old annoyed that I had to do dance and gymnastics when I wanted to do muddy football and rugby at school!

I should also add that I do know someone who transitioned from female to male, probably 10 years ago now (definitely before it was cool) and there was a lot more to it than fitting the social roles/hobbies. I don't doubt that now there will still be people for whom the issue is deeper, but you don't need to transition because you don't fit the constructed social norms of interests. Maybe easier said than done but you should be able to just be 'you' IMO.

Lovely heart warming thread OP - thank you.

Sadly parents are having to be the ones pushing back at schools on all this. It's a social experiment on children with no evidence, dabbling in their sense of reality and self. Hope you don't mind but I've found these 2 articles really helpful (written by a clinical psychologist) about the psychological harm being done to children when adults pretend they're the opposite sex:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

I thought that gender wasn’t going to be taught in schools anymore???

Just be blunt as anything. There are a million different ways to be a girl, in fact, as many as there are girls. Your interests and appearance have fuck all to do with what sex you are. It all stems from stereotyping people and then if people don't fit a stereotype people try to tell then they must belong to the other stereotype. Drugs and surgery can't change your sex only your appearance. If people want to pretend to be the opposite sex that's fine but it doesn't mean you have to believe it,it's their own private imagining. Nothing wrong with it but it doesn't alter reality. She's a girl, that's not something she ever needs to question, she just needs to go with what she likes and not worry who else likes it or not. And ask her stupid school friend why she thinks she's not a girl? Her hair? Her interests? And how backward that thinking is. Does her friend think all girls should wear pink and stay in the kitchen? Etc

Article about the psychological harm adults do to teenagers when we pretend they're the opposite sex.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

I was exactly like that when i was a kid and even as an adult I preferred going out riding motorbikes and going to rallies.
But when I was a kid there was no trans ideology so everyone just called me a tomboy.
Now I'm older I know that in no way did I want to be a boy, I just wanted to share their fun and wasn't a princess kind of girl.
I dread to think how my body could have been mutilated and ruined by hormones if I was a kid now. It would never have been the right decision for me to transition.

It really worries me that there are so few voices in parliament to speak for concerned parents now. A few dozen Tory MPs, if you're lucky, Reform & DUP I suppose, but where will the pushback come from? Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, they're all Stonewall compliant. Add the BBC who are anxious not to upset the govt, and I'd imagine curbs are coming to social media because you cannot suppress criticism of an extremely unpopular ideology otherwise. Starmer even used the phrase 'LGBTQ plus' when describing the new intake of MPs yesterday. All you can do is get together with like-minded parents and make your feelings clear to the school.

I agree. I think we need to do a lot more to teach kids that there is no such thing as boy and girl stereotypes - women (and men obviously) can be however they want to be and have whatever interests without changing gender. I didn't wear any kind of women's clothes or makeup or have any stereotypical women's interests until I was about 20 (my auntie used to buy me barbies in primary school and I'd shoot them with my air rifle 😅). I'm still not interested in what is presented as being what women are into (fashion, makeup, romcoms etc etc). I'm still a woman. Imo it's perpetuating sexism.

I worry for my nieces as one has now decided she's a boy (despite wearing skirts etc every time I see her... sorry can't bring myself to say 'him') and the other who is only 6 has started to say she's a boy too. I just hope their parents don't let them do anything irreversible.

Keep doing what you’re doing. You are an amazing mum. Our school always makes a fuss and celebrates successful females and encourages both genders to get involved in all types of sport, sciences maths, arts etc Hats off to them. I would frankly take my child out of a school where if they put the kids through a gender workshop like the one you describe.

Thank you all for your supportive comments. It’s great to hear from so many of you who were like my DD and are happy and comfortable as who they are as adults.

I think it’s almost taken as a given nowadays that as girls have access to all the sports and opportunities boys do (wasn’t the case when I was growing up), and that many huge companies and countries have a woman in charge, that there’s no need to promote the “you can be whoever you want” message to children as it’s taken as a given, which then regresses us, as children who don’t fit stereotypes (and the other children who may say hurtful things to them) are not proactively told this message.

The changing gender or questioning gender message is however being taught and then this is the influence on children’s thoughts. As a PP points out, it is also worrying how easily a school will use an alternative name and pronouns for a child against parents’ wishes.

I’ll be honest, if DD1 was the same personality as DD2 who very much conforms to the female stereotype I probably wouldn’t bat an eyelid at Pride Day and what the kids are told. I’m run ragged with work and three kids, it wouldn’t register. I think this is how this message gets into schools. The pressure groups make it their mission and most of the parents are too tired to take note or object.

I did make an issue of it last year. I sent a long email to the school with my objections and received a called from the Head, who was very nice, but ultimately didn’t agree. The day was held again this year, but fortunately Pop n Olly were not invited back.

Yes I agree with you.

It is almost as though post victorian gender roles are bullshit.

I wonder who funds groups like Pop and Olly?

I just think gender is an unnecessary minefield! Why do we need it?!

OP I totally agree and think this should be heard loud and clear, you have totally articulated how I feel. I have a new Labour MP and I will be writing to her about this, perhaps all who feel this way should do the same. It is such a dangerous message to give to children.

Right from being three years old I hated wearing dresses and would live in trousers/ shorts and dark coloured t-shirts and jumpers. I had my hair cut short as soon as my Mum would let me - about 13. I loved being outside climbing trees and playing football, but also enjoyed playing with dolls too.

i never wanted to be a boy I just didn’t like girls clothes or long hair, as an adult I generally wear men’s or boys clothes, I’ve never worn make up and still have short hair and I don’t think I even own a dress. It doesn’t mean I’m not female and I don’t want to be male it’s just my preferences.

I echo your voice. Back then the reason why we wanted to be boys was because we wanted to do the fun activities that girls were not allowed to. This has nothing with gender identity- it’s just kids wanting to have fun.

As a society “we” got it wrong. And I use that as a general term because there were many people, mainly women and gay men, who fought against it.

Rather than pressuring everyone to “be kind” and accept that there are “different types” of women, and that some of those might have a penis, we should have been rallying against harmful stereotypes.

I have always believed that the message should have been that you can present in any way you damn choose. If a man loves dresses and baking, he’s still a man.

We were so much more accepting of gender non-conforming people in the 80s but gradually it went wrong somewhere.

Now we’ve moved back to regressive stereotypes that harm every child and adult who doesn’t fit the standard mould.

The focus should have been on accepting that biological sex doesn’t determine personality or lifestyle preferences. Be who you want. Wear what you want. No one cares.

But instead we’re now stuck with the idea that girls who aren’t feminine must be non-binary of trans. And boys who are gentle, introspective, and avoid rough play? Must secretly be a girl, right?

Fuck the genderbread model.

Genderism is sexist and has set women and girls back decades. We’re now worse off than before as we have men speaking for us but they’re being lauded as “women” so there’s no way to reclaim our voice.

Yep, and yet you will be called a terf and bigot for holding this sensible view, and someone will try and get you fired from your job or lose your contracts etc.

Its fucking madness to think anything other than what you’ve stated.

Hi @BettyBooper

Was just coming on to post that exact article.

Rational, well researched and has science and factual evidence provided.
It's actually terrifying that it has taken so long but hopefully a different approach going forward.

I have sent to several ppl IRL.

Couldn't agree more .
At 11 my dd came to me and said she thinks she is a boy .
We sat and talked for a long time about why she thought that and what it all means .
I wanted her to explain to me without my influence in anyway.
Turned out its was because she likes a lot of the things stereotypically associated with boys. Including the clothing .
I thought we had done a good job not labeling things boys and girls . But obviously outside influence had made her think otherwise.
I explained that all the things she likes are for everyone and should never have been labelled boys or girls in the first place.
She has never mentioned it since. And actually loves a mixture of everything now .