To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

“I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.”

@Itsmyshadow I am really confused at the suggestion that girls don’t want to play football, gaming and Pokémon. What do you understand by ‘girl’?

To me a girl is a female human being who can be interested in anything and everything. I grew up in the 70s and 80s. I climbed trees, rolled in mud, had a trainset etc. So did most of my female friends. It never occurred to me or anyone around me that being girls meant we couldn’t/shouldn’t want to do these things. Why would anyone try to impose such limits on a girl’s experience? It really worries me that we’re in 2024 and people can still be thinking there are girls’ activities and boys’ activities in the way you suggest. My DDs have both been through school and no-one made such suggestions either.

Another hard agree. It’s good they gave you the option to withdraw your daughter or at least info you what was planned. It’s silly such attention is spent on this. For those children with true dysphoria they should deal with it privately between parents and child and professionals if needed. Most will grow out of it.

Know of a sen school celebrating Pride with a Pride festival and a drag queen to meet the kids - Children and teenagers with Sen...

I have two ”trans” friends men who now present as women both are in their 60’s and have only transitioned is the last 5 years. Neither learnt about it school in fact even being gay was seen as unacceptable and not mentioned at school. Both have secretly worn girls/women’s clothes wanted to present as female since they were 2/3 years old and continued through pre teens puberty and into their marriages (both have now divorced) and they feel that it has only been in the last 5-10 years that they can openly discuss this with even their very close friends and then they have been cautious because even good friends have been unkind.
They like most of us just want to be left alone to live their lives how they wish to lead them, without being hastled and ridiculed or hassling and upsetting other people. They have absolutely no desire to upset anyone in places like changing rooms/toilets.
You do not become trans just by learning about it school at whatever age from what I’ve learnt it is deep rooted if you don’t feel as these two friends of mine did you will not become a transsexual by listening to a few talks at school. But on the other hand many trans men who have become women are openly ridiculed and attacked when they are just trying to keep their heads down and mind their own business and go about their lives peacefully so school should be encouraging children of all ages to be tolerant of people who are different.

You are right of course. It is a mixed term as she is in it. It drives me mad at tournaments when the organisers talk to all the children at the end and says things like “well done boys, you all played so well” when there are clearly 3 or 4 girls sitting in the pack.

I agree it's a dangerous course. How many of us in MN were "tomboys". Thousands. I had three older brothers, a raft of friends who were boys. Played with my brothers toys, detested dolls and dresses. Liked playing war, and cowboys and Indians, had guns. My best friends at college and beyond were all men. I just don't fit the girly stereotype. I suppose back in day I was also described as a ladette. Playing pool, darts and out with the boys. But I also loved boys and desired them.

I am 100% an heterosexual woman.

YANBU.

Gender ideology just reinforces the harmful gender stereotypes we’ve spent decades trying to break away from. It’s so fucking regressive I don’t know where to start.

Your dd was me as i child. I was the girl running about with the boys in my tracksuits(still love a comfy pair of joggers tbf haha)climbing tree’s, playing football, playing with my trains and dinosaurs. We never had any if this ‘oh your a boy we shall start calling you Tom’ nonsense. By the time i was a teenager i still wore joggers but had a couple more friends that where girls and would wear mascara and a little bit lipgloss. By the time my cousins daughter went to school the were being taught everything, i think half her school went through fazes of being non-binary, gay trans. My cousins dd came out as a lesbian at 13, then non-binary to trans. She is 23 now has a bf who she has been with 4yrs and lives with and looks back in despair that she was just doing what all her friends where doing because the were all to confused to figure it out.

I agree! As a historian, I think that even the commonly understood Victorian sex roles only applied to the middle and upper classes. Working class history shows women not only as homemakers but as breadwinners, as single, married and as widowed women, often doing hard, dirty, and physical work we now consider men’s work. Things like the cleaning, processing, packing and selling of pilchards in Cornwall. Working in factories up and down the country. Women were on the front line in the First World War as drivers and nurses. Before the Second World War, DH’s grandmother worked in a factory for Rolls Royce, on the production line. Lower middle class women without a male breadwinner in the household ran their own businesses, in a wide range of fields - running boarding houses, as milliners and seamstresses, as pub landladies, poulterers, brewers. This is why I feel that the sex stereotypes women are forced towards are more regressive than at any time in modern history.

OP, whatever you do, protect her from being chemically castrated and having her breasts removed. Your instinct is absolutely correct and you are doing a wonderful job parenting her. Keep doing what you are doing.

Also, look at YouTube videos where parents have rescued their children from the trans ideology through drastic measures like not allowing her to go on social media and by getting her to read about the ideology in a concise article online. Make her aware of trans grooming and the dark origins of the trans movement- Professor Money and Nazism.

Men don't 'become' women and 'presenting as female' does not mean being female. Whatever your friends feel @beardediris, they are still men. As long as they respect women's spaces, I don't care how they present, but leave the words alone.

My sister was exactly the same at that age. Said she was a boy and made us call her Shane. It lasted a week. I think its probably just a natural part of children trying to understand where they fit in the world.
Just don't entertain the nonsense. Let her experiment with who she wants to be but at the end of the day, you can teach her that she was born female and she will remain a female BUT she can be any kind of female she chooses to be.

To me presenting as female means that when others look at you, how you dress how your hair is done make up etc means. they think you’re a women, I’ve got no issue with this in fact one of them looks more like a women than many women do.
Are they still men? Yes biologically they are but if you met one of them walking down the road you wouldn’t in a million years think he’s a man. He wants to present to the world as a women and for others to think he’s a women I really struggle to see what harms he doing.

Such a realistic reassuring thread.

OP my DD sounds similar to yours in terms of interests, clothes etc. From 3ish onwards she would only wear and play with clothes and toys from the boy’s depts, and only wanted to be friends with boys. She’s 11 now and still looks the same - short hair, combat shorts, DMs - but most of her close friends are girls these days and now they aren’t into toys as much, the things she enjoys are fairly neutral e.g. athletics, gaming, drawing. No teacher or other adult who knows her well as ever mentioned gender identity - just some other parent acquaintances and a fair few ‘friends’ of mine (I just dismiss it “er, no - there are loads of different ways to be a girl” and don’t engage). A couple of ‘friends’ have also asked if she’s ND - because of her haircut and clothes - no struggles at school and ND has never been raised there either.

She seems happy in herself and knows her own mind for now, but I’m apprehensive about secondary school and how puberty will be for her, mainly due to all the Pop n Olly type shite that’s everywhere now, encouraging kids to conform to such narrow stereotypes or be labelled as different. As others have said - would be much better encouraging resilience in young people and self acceptance exactly as they are.

That’s much longer than I expected 😁. Thanks for the thread.

There are many reasons why a child might feel drawn to express themselves to the opposite sex stereotype.

Social contagion, seeking to fit in, unconscious social pressure, rigid social sex-based stereotypes are all contributory causes.

Your two friends are gender non-conforming men. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The vast majority of people don’t care how other people lead their lives. You can see in this thread the countless comments from PP lamenting sexist stereotyping - and men are victims of that too.

The trouble is that the identity of women in particular is being squashed by some men who want to invade our single sex spaces and claim our voices. This has made many women understandably angry. This means any man who claims a trans identity will be viewed cynically because many don’t want to peacefully co-exist, they want to take something that isn’t theirs. If your friends aren’t using women’s changing rooms etc, then I’m genuinely sorry that they’ve being caught up in the backlash. Every feminist I know would support gender non-conforming men to be happy and would be an absolute ally - provided those men aren’t claiming to be actual women or using facilities designed to be single sex and for women.

I agree with you, however in the intake at my DD’s school it has only been very recently that any other girl has shown an interest in football, there is now a girl’s football club after school that a few of them attend, and a couple of the girls now play for a team. This has helped no end with DD finding things in common with girls and forming friendships. She is still the only girl who joins in the football games at lunch time however and as a result she plays with the boys.

My point was that in her younger school years, she didn’t see a single other girl play football, none of them liked (or like now) Pokémon, none of them played Minecraft. They had / have completely different interests. This set her mind in the place that perhaps she should be a boy not a girl and led to comments from other children to that effect.

How do you explain detransitioners? They thought they were trans because of the attention on the subject often through school and social media.

To present as a woman you have to define what one is. Is it wearing make up and dresses? What about women who don’t wear those? Are they not women? The only way to be a woman is to be an adult human female.

Your friends are men who dress in a way that is a sexist stereotype associated with women. They aren’t women. It’s great though that they don’t want to make women uncomfortable by going into spaces that aren’t for them, good on them. Very refreshing. And I’m sorry, but everyone can tell.

Just to add, my husband occasionally wears nail varnish and eye makeup and will sometimes wear a skirt at festivals. He is not a woman and has never claimed to be.

My neighbour is also not a woman despite how much he claims to be one, dress like one and talk about his 'child bearing hips' and constantly talk to me anout 'us girls' 🤢. Oh and expect sex from any woman he learns is bi/gay.

I do have a couple of friends who genuinely are trans and have been since they were teens so I can't be fully GC but they're just quietly living life as women with their partners, not bothering anyone and would absolutely pass as women if you didn't know.

I agree OP.

Why does having trans friends mean you can't be "fully GC"? What do you understand that to mean?

Most people who are "fully GC" have no problem in accepting people who are trans. We just think that it's impossible to change sex and that single sex spaces need to stay single sex for the safety and dignity of women.

@Itsmyshadow - understood. I confess I had a knee jerk reaction to the apparent suggestion that girls couldn’t like these things. Sorry about that! It really depresses me that we’re in 2024 and there seem to such limiting ideas of what girls might want to do. Girls can be interested in whatever they like.

Good post OP and your daughter sounds like many of the females in my family. My late mum was a tomboy, loved playing with the boys and climbing trees (her words), dressed in male clothing and cut her hair short. She didn't know about gender identities back then and grew up just being who she was. Me and my girls are similar but unlike my mum, my youngest daughter was tempted by the trans ideology as a way to escape adolescence. But her wish to escape adolescence was part of her neurodivergence as she struggles to cope with change and adolescence was one awful change for her. She's through the other side now and happy in her autistic self. I think key to her self-acceptance was finding other girls with similar interests because at school there weren't many and it can feel a lonely place if you're different.

Only about 4% of the global population are genuinely transgender. Why is it necessary to drive this agenda mainstream when it genuinely isn't is beyond me...

Where did you get that figure? Pretty sure it's dramatically less than that.