Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

Exactly. I don’t understand how people like @inamarina can’t see that they’re just perpetuating and reinforcing regressive stereotypes of how men or women "should" feel or behave.

It wasn't @inamarina who said that, she was quoting and refuting a post by @DianeAbbotsJamjars - you were agreeing with her post.

They seem to have a lovely warm glow of the seeming kindness of their words and actions though because of one group positioning themselves as being the ones based in 'love'.

It is when we strip back the obfuscating language and use frank, blunt and accurate words that causes some dissonance to start. Hence the fall back to the emotional manipulation and emotional language.

Accurate language, even though it might be lengthy to read and sometimes blunt and unpleasant to read, is my reaction to the constant demand for emotional language to be used. The 'but they are women' statements that are only ever based in someone else's philosophical belief.

That stripping back of language to expose the material reality is so often demonised as hate or transphobia. So it makes those making the accusation feel good and it gives them the feeling of superiority that they don't have to engage. Because why? Because engaging would just encourage more of that 'transphobia'.

Once you see it, as so many of us have seen it play out over the many years, you will never miss picking it up in posts.

Not obvs at all, I’m afraid.
Could you please explain how stating that biological females are on average smaller than biological males is transphobic?

That stripping back of language to expose the material reality is so often demonised as hate or transphobia. So it makes those making the accusation feel good and it gives them the feeling of superiority that they don't have to engage. Because why? Because engaging would just encourage more of that 'transphobia'.

Exactly. They don't have to think, they can ignore any niggling doubts.

Would it be ok to pick out a particular ethnic group and offer a totalising and degrading commentary on their physical appearance presented as universal truth?

How is saying that group A statistically tends to be shorter than group B degrading? It’s just a statement of fact.

Wanting to be the opposite sex is not the same as claiming to be the opposite sex.
I can well imagine that the former is how some people feel, doesn’t make the latter true though.

Generally Southern Indian people tend to be shorter than Swedish people
Is that ok?

Some of the responses on that other MN thread are incredible.

Walkden · 22/06/2024 05:45
Was it a unisex toilet? She wouldn't be the first woman not respecting men's spaces in a club. Perhaps they took offence and it would explain why the bouncer victim blamed her.

A woman being pissed on by 3 men is acceptable because she might not have been respecting men’s spaces!? Words escape me. The willingness and speed at which some women throw other women under a bus and condone them being pissed on is absolutely shocking.

The “transphobes” just asked you to clarify what exactly “transphobia” was from your point of view.
In response you post the usual empty phrases and accusations.

To me it comes down to why we have single sex spaces in the first place. If your standpoint is- well most transwomen aren’t out to harm women- well why don’t we just let men in too, as most of them aren’t out to harm us either? The problem is you don’t know which ones are going to and which aren’t, and unfortunately, when men decide to harm women, the effects are quite obviously horrific. Live your life how you like, but if you have a penis, I don’t want you sharing certain spaces with me, or my daughters. It’s a real shame that view point is deemed transphobic, I hold the same view about men, but I’m not ‘men phobic’.

I honestly find it too depressing that so many people are ignorant and hateful towards minorities

Men who ride unicycles are a minority. Blue eyed people are a minority. Serial killers are a minority. People who aren't white are a majority in global terms. Women and girls are half the world's population.

The most telling thing for me is that, on these threads, the ‘pro-trans’ (their name, not mine; I’d be more inclined to call them ‘anti-women’) posters just fade away by the end; they just do not have any arguments. So the likes of @Tandora and @Floorbard just drift off. There is such a wealth of unassailably robust argument from intelligent posters (@Ereshkigalangcleg @Helleofabore @inamarina to name just a few) that the virtue-signalling wafflers just… can’t cope.

I wonder if he'll now keep a lower profile on telling women what our rights should be and that we should accept men in our single sex spaces. Because otherwise he's going to get reminded of this an awful lot. For all the good it will do.

Sorry, wrong thread was meant for the Neil Gaiman alleged sexual assault thread.

Or posters like @DianeAbbotsJamjars report our perfectly reasonable posts, which are subsequently deleted by @MNHQ It's easier to have us deleted than to actually address or answer us. Because they can't.

I’m also confused. Why are they bringing Pygmy people into the conversation?
I think it’s about insisting that people deny the evidence of their own eyes: “No, you can’t possibly tell whether that’s a man or a woman, no that’s not an Adam’s apple you’re seeing, noo...”

@macaroniandcheeze

But our attitudes to safe spaces is clearly too simplistic now and becoming outdated. Work is needed to improve and adapt systems so that everyone is considered fairly and without risk. It’s not as simple as letting people in, shutting people out.

What is simplistic about having rape crisis centres that are only available to natal women and rape crisis centres that are only available to natal men and a provision being created (just as women had to fight for single sex spaces) to meet the needs of trans victims too?

Why is that not a workable solution?

Any other solution means that natal women who are rape victims (for example) using the currently single sex provisions will be forced to attend with a male bodied person present. A male bodied person 90-95% statistically likely to still have a penis.

Saying natal men who have been victims of a heinous, devastating crime shouldn't attend single sex women's rape crisis centres is not the same as saying they shouldn't have access to support, help and rape crisis centres. They should. Just not single sex ones where hugely vulnerable women who have been raped are currently getting support.

Women have had to campaign (some dying in the process!) for the right to single sex provisions that help keep us safe. Asking us to make those spaces less safe and less comfortable, for rape victims, in order for male bodied people to feel more comfortable is baffling.

Everyone deserves love, support and help. Not at the expense of that of other people.

If trans people want to campaign for specialist services to support their needs and ensure they are supported at awful times of their life such as after rape, I don't know a single feminist who wouldn't think that was a fantastic idea and be behind it.

Natal men asking natal women to share the spaces they fought for so hard, for so long, rather than fighting for their own suitable spaces, feels like such male entitlement and does nothing but exacerbate the frustration felt by women who don't want to allow natal men to access their safe spaces.

What exactly do you mean by “zero rights whatsoever”?

Character and appearance are different things.
Would it be offensive to say that Swedes are on average tall? I’m sure they’d cope.

Yeah. The (many and increasing) mansplainers bombarding this site of late really are under the mistaken impression that women here are queueing up to hear their oh-so-important opinion.

Whereas you'll not find me, for one, infiltrating an advice and support site mainly aimed at a male demographic.

What's familiar about this picture?

I have yet to find anyone who gives zero rights to transpeople

They can have the rights associated with their sex , their sexuality, their existence as human beings

Just not rights that they are not entitled to

How is having surgery proving they “believe the biology”?

So Brave New World that it's not even funny or satirical anymore.

Trans people have all the same rights as other people and a few extra rights that no one else has.