Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

Yes, men can and frequently do use their genitals to attack women. This isn’t a vague theoretical scenario. Men attack women every day.

Suggesting lesbians are a danger to other women is just bizarre.

I have more than once escaped a predatory man by walking into the women's toilets. They used to be a safe place because men just didn’t go in, and they still should be.

What generalisations? That transmen, being biologically female, are statistically smaller than biological males, in the same way other biological females are?
Oh, those horrible, horrible facts.

‘sports should be fun’ is a meaningless statement to distract from the discussions that need to be had about female safety and competition in sport. And female privacy needs too. It is a thought terminating phrase and anyone using it as a reason to wedge in male people into female sports is either lazy and cannot form an argument or is just there to distract.

100% this.

Having a prime minister make fun of your group

That's a reach.

And for everyone who states that ‘sport should be fun’, the answer is obvious.

Competitive sport is fun. This might be difficult to understand for people who haven't done competitive sport themselves but the best times of my teenage and early adult years were spent on a Volleyball court, even when we lost, or when everything hurt afterwards, there are few things that beat playing a sport you love with people who are as committed as you are, and winning (or not) is a big part of the emotional aspect of it. I have played on social, mixed teams as well, and while it's nice mostly, it's not comparable. Stop taking this away from women and girls.
That's not at you specifically @Helleofabore I just grabbed your sentence.

Except it's not fun to be beaten by male athletes in women's sport.

Excellent post. The transwomen at my university in the 00s were not preaching any of today's gender ideology. Their identity was very much about being trans, there was no boundary pushing or language policing. They were very honest about who they were and what surgery they'd endured.

Like the majority of adult transsexuals who give candid interviews, these transwomen had experienced abusive, sexist, homophobic childhoods. I'm fairly certain they'd rather prevent other children experiencing the same than insist that today's children ought to transition too.

There's a weird resistance amongst so called allies to critically engage with any of this. Today's ideology has told it's followers that any form of questioning is transphobic and transphobia is the greatest sin. It's interesting that in order to remain true to the faith of trans ideology, people start to come out with quite crazy claims about the rest of the world.

Interesting and also chilling. Perhaps an indication of how, throughout history, large groups of people seem to support such bad ideas, again and again. I guess it's only human to need to feel in with the crowd, the tribe.

Born in the wrong body? Not ‘designed’ to be homosexual? These sound like religious beliefs and as such, you must surely understand that not everyone shares these beliefs.

Absolutely agree with all this.

And tbh, nice men won't want to have access to the female spaces, it's the dodgy ones who will. So we might actually be safer in the men's spaces if this is to continue.......

In America in particular, sport can be a gateway to a good education. Why should girls give up scholarships to mediocre boys.

There's a weird resistance amongst so called allies to critically engage with any of this. Today's ideology has told it's followers that any form of questioning is transphobic and transphobia is the greatest sin. It's interesting that in order to remain true to the faith of trans ideology, people start to come out with quite crazy claims about the rest of the world.

Interesting and also chilling. Perhaps an indication of how, throughout history, large groups of people seem to support such bad ideas, again and again. I guess it's only human to need to feel in with the crowd, the tribe.

The contributions from the pro TRAs on this thread and the last seem to fall into three categories:

"Mumsnet shocks me because everywhere else these mean women are silenced, why not here"

"Can't these hysterical women worry about something more important"

"Repeat the mantra and it doesn't matter if people disagree, the more people intoning the mantra the more I can hide in my cognitive dissonance".

Then also we had a "Man here, why can you silly selfish ladies get over your pettiness" as the cherry on top, because of course.

I know Ig.

I also agree that competitive sport is fun. I find it fun myself and can never understand the sentiment that it should be abolished because sport is only about participation. I question that sentiment in any case. When was ‘sport’ created as only for ‘fun’? Sure it was played for fun and for fitness. But I would find it hard to believe that the very first ‘sports’ were developed without competition being a significant factor in its development. And that includes competition against own targets.

Possibly. Though perhaps wetter.

Apparently deliberately urinating on vulnerable people is something lads do when they're drunk.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/police-investigating-after-well-known-28358841.amp

Also an example in unisex toilets
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/5073381-another-reason-for-single-sex-toilets

And everybody already know this

Imaging pretending not to to try to silence women's concerns about the risk of rape. How low are people prepared to go? 🙄

Also It can be a gateway to careers to many women, not just better education . Not only sport can be a respite for a bad home life or an outlet for mental health issues, It can be life changing for some in terms of the direction of their life. it can lead to a career in a related field. I know someone who was an Olympic hopeful who went on to become an Olympic physio as a result . It is not only just a bit of bit of fun and it doesn’t matter who wins. Amateur sport from small children to adults leads to opportunities in and out of sport plus fitness and camaraderie.

The focus that "sport should be fun" just highlights the sexism inherent in genderism and its fans, when it's used to deny women their own sports. It comes from the feeling that it's masculine to be competitive and feminine not to be.

@DianeAbbotsJamjars

Born in the wrong body ?
Are blind people born in the wrong body or do they just have a body whose eyes don't work?

You have an existence outside of your body ?

You do know that you only exist when your body exists ? You can't be taken out and put in another

The focus that "sport should be fun" just highlights the sexism inherent in genderism and its fans, when it's used to deny women their own sports. It comes from the feeling that it's masculine to be competitive and feminine not to be.

The elephant in the room, of course, is that the males who invade women's sport are so competitive that they're happy to "win" on an unfair field. But nothing about genderism actually makes any sense.

In nearly two thousand posts (threads one and two) it is obvious that trans people will not get support whilst they continue to demand access to sex based services. Sexual violence towards women is growing and fear of attack is very real for the majority of women.
I live in the country so tbh I don't see the marches or talks that attract protests.
I think we only have one communal changing room in the shopping centre.
If women are silenced to serve the demands of men then all is lost.
Mumsnet is a safe space to debate these things. Women feel strongly that they are not being heard. They must continue to be forceful in matters that could change their rights.
FWIW I read each of the main parties take on sex versus gender. They all agreed sex is sex.
And 'Diane' I have a trans DC but she doesn't think any male should be in female spaces. She is in her early twenties and her thoughts are changing. Trans ideology nearly cost her her life.

There has been a significant lack of engagement with the issues under discussion. There has been mantraing, whataboutery, false comparison, hyperbole and a whole lot of attempted shaming. But little actual engagement with very little evidence presented.

Over the years I have come
to realise that those supporting the belief that males can be women are fully reliant on emotional manipulation. Often because they have allowed themselves to be manipulated into accepting pseudoscience as proven science.

I would love to see new evidence presented that male people can in anyway be women and that a special subgroup of male people
have a lower risk of committing sex offenses than the female population of the U.K. I know some posters have declared previously that they even have related phds.

Has there been any new evidence in the over 1500 posts? If not, doesn’t this cause those who try to shame women discussing the issues concerning them to stop and wonder why? Why can’t supposedly well educated posters do more than post in these emotionally manipulative ways?

It's so retrograde. I was born in the fifties, and went through grammar school and university at a time when there were many more places for boys/men than for girls/women and they weren't even ashamed (men need a good education to be able to support a family 🙄).

I just couldn't get over the fact that fully 40% of male undergraduates I met had taken the place of a better woman.

And now it's happening again, the bastards. So privileged, and they still want our stuff.

Rape will disappear because gestational carriers won't be permitted to name it, let alone to refuse any penis-haver who wants to fuck them.

It's so frustrating that women (who are incredible) are having to fight yet another battle for fair treatment 😢

It's also not fun to have career-ending injuries inflicted by men who've forced their way into women's sport (Hannah Mouncey and Fallon Fox being notorious examples).

Agree with all of this except not only would they need to show that trans identified males are less of a risk, but also that predatory men are not taking advantage of this loophole that lets men in, and that gender neutral spaces ( which have been created to meet the demands of gender ideology) are not more risky than single sex spaces.

All the evidence we have show the opposite of this. So where is their counter evidence?

Could it be that they would rather put women and girls at risk that engage with the actual evidence?